IDF: Chemicals were disguised as EU aid

cnredd · #1 (**permalink**) 12-30-2007, 06:10 PM

Quote:

The IDF and Shin Bet uncovered 6.5 tons of potassium nitrate hidden in sacks that were disguised as aid from the European Union, the army announced on Saturday.

Security forces discovered the stash in the cargo of a Palestinian truck at a West Bank checkpoint earlier in December. According to the IDF, the material, hidden in sugar sacks, was planned to be used by terrorists in the Gaza Strip.

"Potassium Nitrate is a banned substance in the Gaza Strip and the Judea and Samaria region due to its use by terrorists for the manufacturing of
explosives and Kassam rockets," the IDF spokesperson wrote in a statement.

"This is another example of how the terror organizations exploit the humanitarian aid that is delivered to the Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip with Israel's approval," the statement read.

First, to make a comparison, Tim McVeigh used 2 1/2 tons of ammonium nitrate for the Oklahoma bombing...This is almost 3 times that amount...

Second, how could people possibly root for people who do this and believe they can govern themselves in peace with their neighbors?...

lackluster · #2 (**permalink**) 12-30-2007, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd

Second, how could people possibly root for people who do this and believe they can govern themselves in peace with their neighbors?...

Genocidal racism is always a nice trait in a people, and the one developed since al-Husseini collaborated with the Nazis is certainly first rate.

I doubt if this, alone, is what so enamors people, though, since I really think it is the honor killings, female genital mutillation and torture of gay people that really seals the deal.

saltwn · #3 (**permalink**) 12-31-2007, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lackluster

Genocidal racism is always a nice trait in a people, and the one developed since al-Husseini collaborated with the Nazis is certainly first rate.

I doubt if this, alone, is what so enamors people, though, since I really think it is the honor killings, female genital mutilation and torture of gay people that really seals the deal.

From Wiki:
Palestinians are predominantly Sunni Muslims, though there is a significant Christian minority as well as smaller religious communities.
Palestinian people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't doubt there is some major rotten stuff going on, but I don't think Palestinians are all bad. They just want their homeland back.
Having said that, I do realize there are zealots in every rebel group.
By the way, one of my heart doctors in Arizona (when I lived there) is Palestinian. He is a Christian and has been all his life.
Even George Bush has come to realize Palestine needs a homeland.

saltwn · #4 (**permalink**) 12-31-2007, 02:51 AM

Remember the church bell ringer who was shot in the siege at Manger Square in 2002? He was Palestinian.

Church of the Nativity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sniper Kills Bethlehem Church Bell-Ringer

Note: It was really hard to find an article that didn't use this incident for propaganda.
The Wiki one doesn't mention he was Palestinian, but I remember very clearly hearing the news article. There was so much going on at the time that it didn't draw the outrage it surely would have otherwise.

Adept1 · #5 (**permalink**) 12-31-2007, 03:06 AM

The Palestinian homeland is a large area of the middle east that is currently parts of SEVERAL ARAB nations. Those ARAB nations are the ones not allowing the Palestinians to have a Nation of their own. Israel (huge as it is) holds only a small part of the land that used to be referred to as Palestine.

lackluster · #6 (**permalink**) 12-31-2007, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saltwn

From Wiki:
Palestinians are predominantly Sunni Muslims, though there is a significant Christian minority as well as smaller religious communities.
Palestinian people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't doubt there is some major rotten stuff going on, but I don't think Palestinians are all bad. They just want their homeland back.
Having said that, I do realize there are zealots in every rebel group.
By the way, one of my heart doctors in Arizona (when I lived there) is Palestinian. He is a Christian and has been all his life.
Even George Bush has come to realize Palestine needs a homeland.

I guess I'd ask to define the word "signifigant"? Is 1-2% signifigant, especially as the Christian population used to number about half of the total population of the British mandate of Palestine? Why do you think a popultaion of 50% has been reduced to close to 1%? It has dropped from around 15% to 1-2 percent in recent years, and there may BE no Christian community there in the near future.

Christians in Israel, neighboring areas
Christians in the Palestinian Authority

as to Palestinians not being all bad, I certainly agree, as a minority of Palestinians do not support murder, but as to this claim of "just" wanting their homeland, you are incorrect. Forgetting for the moment there was no such thing as a "Palestinian" before the advent of Zionism with Palestinian identity being a twentieth century invention, how is it that Jews were being murdered before there was a state of Israel if statehood is the only issue? Why do a majority of Palestinians support the elimination of Israel if they just want a state of their own ? FactsOfIsrael.com: Poll: Majority of Palestinians support homicide/suicide bombings and wish for the destruction of the State of Israel

AS to Palestinian culture in general, again, not all are "bad", but human rights abuses are endemic to this culture.

Christians in the Palestinian Authority
freedomhouse.org: Challenging Inequality: Obstacles and Opportunities Towards Women's Rights in the Middle East and North Africa

and lest you wonder about the fairness of their official media, I might offer:

Palestinian Media Watch - Homepage

that doccuments the sick indoctrination of their children into the cult of murder as well as the general level of Nazi-like hatred of Jews.

cnredd asked the question why support this, and I ask it too. Why support a people who willfully elect terrorists to represent them, who support the murder of innocent civilians, who oppress half their population and whose political philosophy descends directly from the Nazis through their leaders, and through their official media? Again, no, not ALL Palestinians fit the bill, but enough sure do as to be characteristic rather than anomalous.

saltwn · #7 (**permalink**) 12-31-2007, 01:41 PM

Here's a start for your perusal.
Concerns the 1940's Exodus of Palestinians:

Quote:

Israeli position

Glazer[2] summarised the position of Zionist historians, notably Schechtman, Kohn, Jon Kymche and Syrkin, as follows: ‘the Arabs in Palestine were asked to stay and live as citizens in the Jewish state. Instead, they chose to leave, either because they were unwilling to live with the Jews, or because they expected an Arab military victory which would annihilate the Zionists. They thought they could leave temporarily and return at their leisure. Later, an additional claim was put forth, namely that the Palestinians were ordered to leave, with radio broadcasts instructing them to quit their homes’. Glazer also points out that the Zionist historians attribute the Arab leaders’ alleged calls for a mass evacuation to the period before the proclamation of Israeli statehood. Afterward, ‘all but the most biased of Zionist works agree that expulsion became standard policy and was carried out systematically’.

Palestinian and Arab position

The criticism the above Israeli version got was summarized around 1960 by Glazer:[3] ‘Childers studied radio broadcast transcripts from the relevant time period and found that not only were there no orders to evacuate, but in fact the populace was continually urged to remain. […] Moreover, at the same time that Arab radio stations were appealing to the inhabitants not to leave, Zionist radio stations were urging the population to flee, by exaggerating the course of battle, and, in some cases, fabricating complete lies.’

According to Glazer[4] ‘[t]he Arab view of history has maintained that the Palestinians did not leave their homes voluntarily [but] were expelled by Zionist aggression. […] Sources sympathetic to the Arab viewpoint have seen in the events of 1948 the fulfilment of a long dreamed-of Zionist plan to rid Palestine of its Arab population, thus forcibly transforming Palestine into a Jewish state.’ Walid Khalidi points at the influence of thinking about ‘transfer’ of the Arab population to other Arab countries, among Zionists in the years prior to the exodus. In 1961 Khalidi also said that the Zionists had military superiority and that plan Dalet, the Zionists’ military plan executed in April and May 1948, aimed at expelling the Palestinians.[5]

Criticism of traditional positions

Alternative explanations have also been offered. For instance Peretz[6] and Gabbay[7] emphasize the psychological component: panic or hysteria swept the Palestinians and caused the exodus. They attributed this to diverse causes like breakdown of Palestinian leadership, atrocity stories and Jewish military victories. Glazer also says that 'Israeli public opinion has maintained that as the Arabs planned to massacre the Jews, when the Jews began winning the war the Arabs fled, fearing the same treatment would be suffered on them.'.

Globally, in his paper of 1981, Glazer thinks that "both Palestinians and Israeli spokesmen and adherents have sought to link the events of 1948 with their claims to the land today". He claims that "[one] fundamental problem[] [of the subject] [is to deal] with historians who are overtly biased" and try to identify the factors that influence this.[8]

If you were told to abandon your country (say you were Mexican American or African decent) wouldn't you be a little ticked?

Spencer Collins · #8 (**permalink**) 12-31-2007, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd

First, to make a comparison, Tim McVeigh used 2 1/2 tons of ammonium nitrate for the Oklahoma bombing...This is almost 3 times that amount...

Second, how could people possibly root for people who do this and believe they can govern themselves in peace with their neighbors?...

Exactly..this dichotomy of principle is a bridge too far to cross for people who truly seek peace and cooperation in that region.

cnredd · #9 (**permalink**) 12-31-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saltwn

Having said that, I do realize there are zealots in every rebel group.

You have that order reversed...

This is not a situation where there are a few bad people within the majority of good...

This is a situation where there are few good people within the majority of bad...

Just look at the last elections there...

The choices were Fatah (bent on the destruction of Israel, corrupt, claimed suicides bombings and repeated attacks) and Hamas (bent on the destruction of Israel, corrupt, claimed suicides bombings and repeated attacks)...

Quote:

An Arabic translation of Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf is being distributed by Al-Shurouq, a Ramallah based book distributor, to East Jerusalem and territories controlled by the PA. According to Agence France Presse (Sept. 8), the book, previously banned by Israel, has been allowed by the PA and is 6th on the Palestinian best-seller list. Bisan publishers in Lebanon first published this edition in 1963 and again in 1995. The book costs about $10.

Don't sit there and tell me the "majority" of people buying this book are doing is for writing a school thesis...

saltwn · #10 (**permalink**) 12-31-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cnredd

You have that order reversed...

This is not a situation where there are a few bad people within the majority of good...

This is a situation where there are few good people within the majority of bad...

Just look at the last elections there...

The choices were Fatah (bent on the destruction of Israel, corrupt, claimed suicides bombings and repeated attacks) and Hamas (bent on the destruction of Israel, corrupt, claimed suicides bombings and repeated attacks)...

Don't sit there and tell me the "majority" of people buying this book are doing is for writing a school thesis...

I am not agreeing with the tactics. I'm just saying an injured animal will fight when there is no place left to go.
And these Nazi tactics are attractive to Palestinians for the same reasons they were attractive to Germans. And the same reason Nelson Mandela told the west (Paraphrasing) "Hey look, if you guys don't help us, I guarantee we will get help elsewhere and it might be communism. Just a fact of survival..."

It may be too late to stop them or to do anything but shoot on sight, but there are definitely reasons they act the way they do.

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