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US Congress & The Legislative Branch Discuss Whatever you wish government to do, you should be willing to force with a gun at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by MrLiberty The problem is you're not saying it is the right thing to do when you use ...

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2009, 04:21 AM
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Default Re: Whatever you wish government to do, you should be willing to force with a gun

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLiberty View Post
The problem is you're not saying it is the right thing to do when you use the word "skip." To me that is a crook slithering out of an obligation, so your use of the implys the owner is some how not honest.

I don't really believe that, in all the world there are only a fraction of crook, thieves and murderers. The majority of the people are good. Government doesn't make men behave better, in fact I think just the opposite is true when you look at the caliber of immoral men and women now elected in this country.
I'm not going to imply anything. When a man would lavish an expensive vacation upon himself while at the same time refusing to acknowledge and properly compensate those who provided him with the ability to do so, he is a crook slithering out of an obligation.

The fact that he made a capital outlay does not excuse him from doing the correct thing. So while it may be perfectly legal, yes, he's a crook.

I would tend to agree that, when money isn't involved, the majority of people are good. I would argue that in America, greed is our greatest weakness because we are placing a higher value on the dollar and self-gratification than being a responsible and just business owner.
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Continue that line of reasoning, Muffin... I'm judging you. Harshly.



You get the respect you give. And if you're a Republican, you b*tch about paybacks being a b*tch. So sorry you're mad your guy is getting the respect you gave ours, Snowflakes.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2009, 05:39 AM
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Default Re: Whatever you wish government to do, you should be willing to force with a gun

I have never asserted that Government is unneeded. In fact, I asserted that it is required to compensate for human shortcomings, though it is essentially useless for human ennoblement.


You are still failing to study the previous posts. Are you still jetlagged?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2009, 06:38 AM
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Default Re: Whatever you wish government to do, you should be willing to force with a gun

One would hope that your acumen as an electrical engineer exceeds that you exhibit as a social and political commentator.

As the previous posts took pains to explain for the more attentive, even a fine is ultimately backed up by the threat of incarceration which is enforced by physical intimidation including the use of firearms. This is one of the reasons that police go forth armed, and people are not generally simply sent stern letters instructing them to present themselves at the county lockup.

Again using a previously posted, and dare I say, brilliant example, Landlord arrested over fines; Penalties stemmed from building code violations.

As well:
  • Code Violations Lead to Landlords' Arrest
  • Flagrant Offender Of The Building Code Arrested
  • "Can a Code Enforcement Officer arrest me for a violation?
    There are two Code Enforcement Officers and one Code Enforcement Supervisor in Burke County.
    One officer is a Burke County Sheriff’s Deputy with full arrest powers. It is possible that you may
    be arrested for a violation of any county ordinance pursuant to North Carolina General Statute
    14-4 which makes it a criminal offense to violate a local ordinance. Any Code Enforcement
    Official may also request a warrant for arrest or a criminal summons through the Magistrate’s
    Office for violation of a local ordinance."
  • "CODE ENFORCEMENT OFFICER
    Plumas County Code Enforcement Officers are charged by the Board of Supervisors with the authority to issue citations and make arrest, as appropriate, in the enforcement of Chapter 8 of Title 5, Titles 6, 8 and 9 of the Plumas County Code, and Sections 373(a), 374.4 and 402b of the Penal Code.
    "
  • Amish Men Must Stand Trial For Building Code Violations?
  • " Revised Ordinances of Honolulu
    Chapter 17

    ELECTRICAL CODE
    . . .may arrest without warrant alleged violators by issuing a summons or citation in accordance with the procedure specified in this section. Nothing in this section shall be construed as barring such authorized personnel from initiating prosecution by warrant or such other judicial process as is permitted by statute or rule of court."
I did try to spare you further embarrassment.
__________________
“Quod scripsi, scripsi"

╠═════════════════════════════════════╣

“Serpent's breath, charm of death and life, thy omen of making!”
Or if you're a traditionalist,
“Anál nathrach, orth’ bháis’s bethad, do chél dénmha!”
And children, say it like you mean it!

╠═════════════════════════════════════╣
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2009, 07:02 AM
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Default Re: Whatever you wish government to do, you should be willing to force with a gun

Quote:
Originally Posted by dabateman View Post
i'm not going to imply anything. When a man would lavish an expensive vacation upon himself while at the same time refusing to acknowledge and properly compensate those who provided him with the ability to do so, he is a crook slithering out of an obligation.

who said anything about not compensating those who did the work? I didn't. However, while the employer is obligated to pay a fair wage, he is under no obligation to lavish his employees with anything other than that fair wage. If they don't think they are compensated well enough they can always leave and find other employment.

the fact that he made a capital outlay does not excuse him from doing the correct thing. So while it may be perfectly legal, yes, he's a crook.

you first said that you would not imply anything, and then you say he is a crook by not doing the "right thing." the capitalist would have to do something illegal to be a crook. Legally he is only obligated to pay a fair wage. And if there is a contract involved he must also honor that. As long as he honors all obligations that he and his emplyee agreed to nothing more must be done. As i said in the previous reply they can always look for another job if they feel slighted.

i would tend to agree that, when money isn't involved, the majority of people are good. I would argue that in america, greed is our greatest weakness because we are placing a higher value on the dollar and self-gratification than being a responsible and just business owner.

i disagree, we have few big corporations that have really screwed their employees, enron being just one example. But, there are thousand of small mom and pop type businesses that do well by their employees that get no recognition.
:d :d :d
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2009, 01:27 PM
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Default Re: Whatever you wish government to do, you should be willing to force with a gun

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Originally Posted by MrLiberty View Post
:d :d :d
I think that's the problem. He is not legally required to pay a fair wage. This is the misconception. He is only legally required to pay the minimum wage, which values his work the same as the high schooler dishing ice cream legally speaking.

Large corporations, which have been the vast majority of this conversation, is what I am focusing on. I support small business as small business generally does right by their employees.

The question is, why do they do right by their employees? They are small enough to still see the needs and small enough to have not gotten lost chasing the dollar.

I think ultimately you and I may agree at the core of the issue, that small businesses in general, do a better job than corporations and that subsidizing corporations is destroying the local economies of this nation and abusing it's human capital. I think we can also agree that good workers are often under paid and over worked (for the compensation) and that bad workers are overpaid. I think that we can agree that a business is better off by paying it's quality staff well as they are what drives the business.

I just get frustrated that people seem to think that the business owners only responsibility is to collect a check. When you open a business and you employ people, you take on more responsibility as it is your business that is providing for these families. If your worker does good work, you are ethically obliged to pay him the best wage possible.
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Continue that line of reasoning, Muffin... I'm judging you. Harshly.



You get the respect you give. And if you're a Republican, you b*tch about paybacks being a b*tch. So sorry you're mad your guy is getting the respect you gave ours, Snowflakes.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2009, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: Whatever you wish government to do, you should be willing to force with a gun

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
One would hope that your acumen as an electrical engineer exceeds that you exhibit as a social and political commentator.

As the previous posts took pains to explain for the more attentive, even a fine is ultimately backed up by the threat of incarceration which is enforced by physical intimidation including the use of firearms. This is one of the reasons that police go forth armed, and people are not generally simply sent stern letters instructing them to present themselves at the county lockup.

Again using a previously posted, and dare I say, brilliant example, Landlord arrested over fines; Penalties stemmed from building code violations.

As well:
  • Code Violations Lead to Landlords' Arrest
  • Flagrant Offender Of The Building Code Arrested
  • "Can a Code Enforcement Officer arrest me for a violation?
    There are two Code Enforcement Officers and one Code Enforcement Supervisor in Burke County.
    One officer is a Burke County Sheriff’s Deputy with full arrest powers. It is possible that you may
    be arrested for a violation of any county ordinance pursuant to North Carolina General Statute
    14-4 which makes it a criminal offense to violate a local ordinance. Any Code Enforcement
    Official may also request a warrant for arrest or a criminal summons through the Magistrate’s
    Office for violation of a local ordinance."
  • "CODE ENFORCEMENT OFFICER
    Plumas County Code Enforcement Officers are charged by the Board of Supervisors with the authority to issue citations and make arrest, as appropriate, in the enforcement of Chapter 8 of Title 5, Titles 6, 8 and 9 of the Plumas County Code, and Sections 373(a), 374.4 and 402b of the Penal Code.
    "
  • Amish Men Must Stand Trial For Building Code Violations?
  • " Revised Ordinances of Honolulu
    Chapter 17

    ELECTRICAL CODE
    . . .may arrest without warrant alleged violators by issuing a summons or citation in accordance with the procedure specified in this section. Nothing in this section shall be construed as barring such authorized personnel from initiating prosecution by warrant or such other judicial process as is permitted by statute or rule of court."
I did try to spare you further embarrassment.
Why would I be embarassed? You take an extreme case and talk like it is the norm. I told you the reality of the day to day operations that result in regards to building code violations. Using your logic, I can legally arrest you any time I ****ing please. You want me to do that with bullets? Sorry, I don't own a gun. And I don't think I'll ever own a gun. But I got no problem ripping your head off and ****ting down your neck if I ever saw you point that gun at an elected official. Then with my **** flowing out the top of your neck, I would place you under arrest.

Telling people to use guns against their government officials because they don't like something is the kind of thing you'd hear from a 3 year old. A little, selfish, whiney, baby, who's pissed off they didn't get their way.

We have a system of government that works. But the main ingredient to that system, is a well-informed republic. Telling people to use firearms to settle their everyday issues with the law, is terrorism. If Usama Bin Laden were a member of Political Wrinkles, this is the kind of thread he would start.

Our fore-fathers made it our responsibility to replace the government when it was clear they were not governing in the interest of the republic. They wrote this into the Constitution because of the actions of King George in the colonies. For the last 200 plus years, the closest this nation got to that King George, was our own President George II. And during that 8 year period, I don't remember seeing anyone on the right complaining about government intrusion, socialism or our country turning into Russia. Even though we were already half-way there with mythical notion of a unitary president.

People who talk like you, should lose their 2nd Ammendment rights. Because you are a clear and present danger to the safety of this country. Right wing terrorism is alive and well in the good ole' US of A. During the campaign, you saw all this hatred and vitriol coming from the right. "He's not like us" "He's not an American" "He'll turn into a socialist country" "He pals around with terrorists", "He's shoving universal health care down our throats" ...

You whip up this frenzy of hate and emotion out of the most un-educated angry white people in our society by telling lie after lie after lie through all your media propaganda machines (ie., Boss Limbaugh, radio; Freedom Works, internet; Fox News, television) then some guy goes to a Presidential rally with a sidearm and a sign last used for an armed rebellion, now you start this thread telling people to use force for anything they disagree with government on. I can see the writing on the wall. There's a lot of people in this country who have forgotton what it means to be an American.

You people on the right didn't say anything during the Bush presidency, but when Obama wants to do something that helps the most disenfranchised of our population, you get aggravated. You got no problem spending $12 billion dollars a month on someone else's country, but this health care bill is the big evil that must be stopped at all costs. I hate hypocrite's. I hate selfish hypocrite's even more. And most of all, I hate selfish, dumbass, hypocrites posing as grass-roots, American's with a legitimate reason to use force against their elected officials.

I'll finish this going back to your building code analogy...

You tried to take an extreme case and apply as the norm. That's like some guy building an A-frame house out in the middle of the desert because he's worried about snow loads.

Last edited by Billo_Really; 08-16-2009 at 03:13 PM..
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 08-16-2009, 11:43 PM
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Default Re: Whatever you wish government to do, you should be willing to force with a gun

Now, since everyone else already knows that you've totally missed the point of the thread, I hope you'll appreciate that I'm taking time to point out your major error here.

The thread has nothing whatever to do with anyone using guns against the government, but is a discussion of the fact that all government acts are backed by their guns. It was further and correctly asserted, that moral considerations would require that anyone demanding government action be willing to hold and use the governmental firearm themself.

Now, don't you feel just a teeny bit foolish?
__________________
“Quod scripsi, scripsi"

╠═════════════════════════════════════╣

“Serpent's breath, charm of death and life, thy omen of making!”
Or if you're a traditionalist,
“Anál nathrach, orth’ bháis’s bethad, do chél dénmha!”
And children, say it like you mean it!

╠═════════════════════════════════════╣

Last edited by Oftencold; 08-16-2009 at 11:53 PM..
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2009, 12:02 AM
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Default Re: Whatever you wish government to do, you should be willing to force with a gun

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Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
Now, since everyone else already knows that you've totally missed the point of the thread, I hope you'll appreciate that I'm taking time to point out your major error here.

The thread has nothing whatever to do with anyone using guns against the government, but is a discussion of the fact that all government acts are backed by their guns. It was further and correctly asserted, that moral considerations would require that anyone demanding government action be willing to hold and use the governmental firearm themself.

Now, don't you feel just a teeny bit foolish?
And I told you not every problem in America is solved through the use of firearms.

You are projecting a subliminal message that sooner or later, you will need a gun to get things done. And the idiots in this country will choose sooner over later.

It's nice to see you can't even address the points I raised.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2009, 12:10 AM
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Default Re: Whatever you wish government to do, you should be willing to force with a gun

Political Wrinkles - View Single Post - Whatever you wish government to do, you should be willing to force with a gun
__________________
“Quod scripsi, scripsi"

╠═════════════════════════════════════╣

“Serpent's breath, charm of death and life, thy omen of making!”
Or if you're a traditionalist,
“Anál nathrach, orth’ bháis’s bethad, do chél dénmha!”
And children, say it like you mean it!

╠═════════════════════════════════════╣
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 08-17-2009, 12:16 AM
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Default Re: Whatever you wish government to do, you should be willing to force with a gun

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
And I told you not every problem in America is solved through the use of firearms.
Of course they aren't. But every single solitary government solution is backed by the threat of deadly force. This is what governments are. Didn't you know? They are apprentice necessary, and ours is exceptional, but it is still stylized force.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Billo_Really View Post
You are projecting a subliminal message that sooner or later, you will need a gun to get things done. [etc.]
Well, one does, whether one holds that gun or not. All of your liberties were won on that basis and are maintained in that fashion. I merely invite you to accept that fundamental reality that you should be able to picture yourself committing the acts that you benefit from, 0or the policies you would enforce on others.

In other words, I won't let you avoid picturing the gun that you hold in principle over your fellow citizens, nor the one you and our forebearers used to exterminate countless foreign nationals and co-nationals since the dawn of Civilization to bring us to where we are now.
__________________
“Quod scripsi, scripsi"

╠═════════════════════════════════════╣

“Serpent's breath, charm of death and life, thy omen of making!”
Or if you're a traditionalist,
“Anál nathrach, orth’ bháis’s bethad, do chél dénmha!”
And children, say it like you mean it!

╠═════════════════════════════════════╣

Last edited by Oftencold; 08-17-2009 at 12:27 AM..
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