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US Congress & The Legislative Branch Discuss Abortion Battle Heats Up on the Hill at the Political Forums; Originally Posted by Comet I hate to be forward, Lurch, but I am hoping you will answer my question. I ...

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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2011, 03:58 PM
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Default Re: Abortion Battle Heats Up on the Hill

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Originally Posted by Comet View Post
I hate to be forward, Lurch, but I am hoping you will answer my question. I believe it is an important one and key to the entire basis and foundation of this debate.
Sorry Comet, I didn't ignore you, just missed it, I assure you it wasn't intentional.
While what I said cannot be a "fact" in the traditional sense as our conscience doesn't come with an instruction manual, I think its safe to say that taking a human life is something that requires justification. One such justification is self-defense, this justification could apply to a human in the womb. No other reason for killing that has been presented thus far qualifies as justification, aside from rape.

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The bottom line, whether we want to admit it or not, is the answer to the "When life begins" debate, is, it will never be answered. It is a far too polarizing topic and people on both sides are too entrenched in their stances and beliefs that nothing science ever puts forward will ever convince the other side. It has even infiltrated the scientific community and has scientists on both sides fudging numbers to paint their side in the most positive light.
I agree whole heartedly with this statment. We are unable to determine with any certainty when "life" begins. But, consider this, we have hundreds if not thousands of laws meant to prevent people from doing things that may endanger another person. How do we justify allowing elective abortion when we know it may kill another person?

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I do know this. Abortion will always be legal in the United States, like it or not. It is legal and here to stay. Forever. Whether you agree with it or not.
I agree that some abortions will always be legal. I also believe that we are one or two key judicial appointments away from severly limiting when it is legal.

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I am pro-choice. The government just cannot decide a woman's right in this matter. Having an abortion has to be a decision that lies strictly in her hands and no one else's. The government has no place in deciding for a woman a decision that will change her life in such a dramatic manner.
I am pro-choice as well, where we differ is in the timing of that decision. I am very much a smaller gov't advocate, but one of the things that the gov't does have the duty to do is protect the citizenry. Gov't has the responsibility to pass an enforce laws against murder, rape, stealing, etc.

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However, personally, I am pro-life. If I were female, I would never have one, with the exception of possibly rape, incest or my life was in serious jeopardy if I decided to attempt to give birth.
These are circumstances where abortion can be justified. In the case of rape, the woman did not consent to the sex, her right to choose was denied. In the case of danger to the mother's life, were talking about self defense.

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It is an issue where I refuse to push my personal moral compass on others. Instead, it is an issue where the most logical course of action is to allow the individuals to make up their own minds and decisions.
I disagree, the most logical course of action is to adopt the position that protects people like we do with so many other laws. For instance, it is illegal to randomly shoot a gun into the air (at least where I live) because the bullet could cause harm to another person, even though the chances are incredibly slim.

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Less government, not more
Smaller gov't and anti-abortion are not mutually exclusive. We should make gov't smaller where they are acting outside their mandate. Passing laws to protect people from harm by others is within that mandate.
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Old 12-06-2011, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Abortion Battle Heats Up on the Hill

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Well I disagree. I think there should be a look at abortion from the standpoint of life. Not privacy. It is a medical issue not a privacy or constitutional; issue other than a doctor should be free to prescribe it and a woman to seek it. Never should have been used for birth control and while many would seek other means many would not absent the convenience of a clinic that hands them out like so much confetti on New Years Eve.
It is a Constitutional issue when you consider what prohibiting abortion actually is.

It is the state telling a woman that she must donate the use of her body for the benefit of another.

Does the state have this right? Not power. Right.

Right now, they don't.

Let us ask ourselves............if the state has the right to seize control of a womans body for the benefit of an 'unborn' child, then why not a born child.

Do born people not have the same right to life at the expense of another that unborn people have?

Are unborn people legally superior to born people?

What part of the constitution removes those rights upon birth?

Doesn't the entire idea of one person having rights another person doesn't fly in the face of the 14th amendment?



As far as abortion for birth control.....this is a personal comfort issue. My ego doesn't allow me to insist upon laws that limit the behavior of other for no reason other than my comfort.
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Old 12-06-2011, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: Abortion Battle Heats Up on the Hill

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Originally Posted by catusfelidae View Post
It is a Constitutional issue when you consider what prohibiting abortion actually is.

It is the state telling a woman that she must donate the use of her body for the benefit of another.

Does the state have this right? Not power. Right.

Right now, they don't.

Let us ask ourselves............if the state has the right to seize control of a womans body for the benefit of an 'unborn' child, then why not a born child.

Do born people not have the same right to life at the expense of another that unborn people have?

Are unborn people legally superior to born people?

What part of the constitution removes those rights upon birth?

Doesn't the entire idea of one person having rights another person doesn't fly in the face of the 14th amendment?



As far as abortion for birth control.....this is a personal comfort issue. My ego doesn't allow me to insist upon laws that limit the behavior of other for no reason other than my comfort.
Again I see this mostly as a medical issue. Others are tired of my repetition I'm sure, but it's the position I've held for some time.
A medical treatment for physical or even mental reasons.
And women don't have a "right" to privacy. Just look at those who deliver in a Naval teaching hospital and you'll see it isn't very private.
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Old 12-06-2011, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: Abortion Battle Heats Up on the Hill

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And women don't have a "right" to privacy.
Of course they do.

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Just look at those who deliver in a Naval teaching hospital and you'll see it isn't very private.
Then those who object to the lack of privacy have the right to deliver elsewhere.
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Old 12-06-2011, 05:27 PM
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I am very much a smaller gov't advocate, but one of the things that the gov't does have the duty to do is protect the citizenry.
Citizenship is determined by where one is born.
The government has neither duty nor legitimate interest in "protecting" the unborn from those whose bodies they inhabit.

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Gov't has the responsibility to pass an enforce laws against murder, rape, stealing, etc.
The government has a legitimate interest in prohibiting acts which endanger or otherwise adversely affect society.
I fail to see how abortion is on par with such acts, and frankly I find such an implication both ridiculous and offensive.
I'm a vegetarian and an animal welfare activist; factory farming makes me cry. Yet you don't hear me implying that eating meat should be illegal, since murder, rape, and burglary are.
And believe me, my right to bodily sovereignty is far more fundamental, far more central to my basic humanity, than your right to stuff your face with Big Macs.
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Old 12-06-2011, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Abortion Battle Heats Up on the Hill

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Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
And believe me, my right to bodily sovereignty is far more fundamental, far more central to my basic humanity, than your right to stuff your face with Big Macs.
What about the KFC Double Down?

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Old 12-06-2011, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Abortion Battle Heats Up on the Hill

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Of course they do.



Then those who object to the lack of privacy have the right to deliver elsewhere.
And what about the girl who's legs are spread elsewhere? Women have very little privacy of body once they become pregnant imho. And if you think that's bad wait till you have to sing twinkle twinkle little star to your toddler from the commode. That'll get your adrenalin goin.
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Old 12-06-2011, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: Abortion Battle Heats Up on the Hill

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Originally Posted by 1069 View Post
Citizenship is determined by where one is born.
The government has neither duty nor legitimate interest in "protecting" the unborn from those whose bodies they inhabit.
Ok, bad wording, replace "citizenry" with people.

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The government has a legitimate interest in prohibiting acts which endanger or otherwise adversely affect society.
I agree.

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I fail to see how abortion is on par with such acts, and frankly I find such an implication both ridiculous and offensive.
Simple, we outlaw things because they are potentialy harmful to another human being. Most abortions fall into this catagory.

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I'm a vegetarian and an animal welfare activist; factory farming makes me cry. Yet you don't hear me implying that eating meat should be illegal, since murder, rape, and burglary are.
Holy apples to oranges comparison Batman!!
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Old 12-06-2011, 05:41 PM
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So who exactly is going to decide to abort a fetus based on race?

If I am pregnant, then the fetus is mine and therefore a member of my race.

I suppose it could be argued that if the father was of another race, some women might wish not to give birth to a mixed race baby.

But, seriously, is that really happening? Do they have evidence of this or is it just Mr. Frank's fantasy?
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Old 12-06-2011, 05:50 PM
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Default Re: Abortion Battle Heats Up on the Hill

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And what about the girl who's legs are spread elsewhere? Women have very little privacy of body once they become pregnant imho. And if you think that's bad wait till you have to sing twinkle twinkle little star to your toddler from the commode. That'll get your adrenalin goin.
That may reflect your personal experience, but it has nothing to do with what is or should be the law of the land.
My rights do not change one iota when I become pregnant.
I have the right to pay the individual of my choosing to deliver my baby in the location of my choosing. They are to do so in the manner of my choosing (hell, with this last one, I even chose my baby's birthday. I wanted him born five days prior to my actual due date. It was done. My doctor is willing to induce at 39 weeks, which is when it is medically safe to do so. Had my doctor not been willing, I would've found one who was). Should an emergency arise where a woman in labor is unconscious or otherwise mentally incapacitated and medical decisions need to be made on her behalf, these are to be made by the person she has previously chosen and designated for this purpose.
If she doesn't like the way things are are done in a hospital, she can choose a different one. Or a birthing center. Or she can give birth at home, attended by a mid-wife. Or in the woods all by herself, if that is her choice.

Anecdotally, I have a 21 year old and a 20 year old, as well as a newborn.
I did notice a difference between my experience with this recent pregnancy and delivery, as opposed to those other long-ago ones, as far as feeling empowered and in control. I selected my doctor carefully, and paid a lot of money to have the medical personnel at the hospital of my choice deliver my baby. I procured and paid them for their services. They were working for me. If I hadn't liked the job they were doing, I could've dismissed them and declined their services at any time.
This was just as true 21 years ago, but I didn't know it.
Just because you don't know you have rights, however, doesn't mean you don't.
A person may be ignorant of their rights and therefore not exercise them, but that does not mean said rights don't exist. They exist regardless.
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