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Science, Inventions & Space Discuss Stephen Hawking says he knows what happened before the dawn of time at the General Discussion; Again, for the ones who haven't read it-- As long as we are finite beings, we will never understand the ...

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Old 03-06-2018, 05:04 PM
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Default Re: Stephen Hawking says he knows what happened before the dawn of time

Again, for the ones who haven't read it--

As long as we are finite beings, we will never understand the infinite.
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Old 03-07-2018, 08:02 AM
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Default Re: Stephen Hawking says he knows what happened before the dawn of time

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Bingo.


The Bible is a narrative designed to glorify HIM and relate HIS word. Much of it is a story about History, some of it proven Sorta But there is no record yet found, none, of Moses in Egypt.
again maybe you may not be familiar with some of the evidence available Franc. It's not well advertised.

there is in fact some good evidence that points to the Jews in Egypt from the time of Joseph as an official down to Moses and the Exodus as well.

https://youtu.be/l2YacYRLGSI
there's a film and film series that explores some the research done.
it's called patterns of evidence.
Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus | You never know where a crises of faith will lead you
patterns of evidence
amazon

Evidence for the Exodus, a radio podcast that looks at some the evidence.
Evidence for the Exodus | KGOV.com
* RSR's List of Historical Evidence for the Exodus:
- The Hebrews Gave the Word "Pharaoh" to the World:
- Exodus Didn't Happen in the 13th Century BC:
* Archaeologists Conflate the Name of "Ramses" with the Date of Building:
* An ancient city known to be built by Semites was absorbed into Ramses:
- Avaris in Goshen in Egypt's Nile delta was home to Semite population:
- Houses in Avaris were of foreign design:
- Avaris became a major city of foreigners:
- Pharaoh’s support for the foreigners of Avaris:
- Twenty Semite settlements in Goshen:
- The Semite graves differed from Egyptian burials:
- These Semites were shepherds:
- Palace in Avaris built for a Semite:
- The Semite’s palace had twelve tombs:
- The Semitic ruler had a pyramid-shaped tomb:
- Statue of Semite inside the pyramid tomb:
- Details – Accurate incidentals like the 20-shekel price of a slave:
- A Pharaoh’s pyramid built by the Waterway of Joseph:
- Semitic slaves suddenly appear, in Amenemhat’s reign:
- The Egyptian Waterway of Joseph: For thousands of years this canal has been named for Joseph, in Arabic called Bahr Yussef.
- Details – Building materials include bricks made with straw:
- Ancient Egyptian document of the period lists 70 names of Semitic slaves:
- Ancient Egypt's Hebrew slave names are primarily female:
- The Semites suddenly depart Avaris and elsewhere:
... AND much more are discussed in this 1st of a SERIES of
RSR's List of Evidence for the Exodus Parts 2 -8
So yeah there's evidence

By the way many of the things we now take as history about the ancient middle east were once PooPooed by "respectable scientific archeological history".
at one point they didn't think there was a city called Jericho. until they found it.
they didn't think there was a Pontus Pilate until they found him,
they didn't think various aspect of Babylonian biblical history was correct until they found that it was.
Didn't believe there were cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, until they found it.
etc etc etc

seems better to me to TRUST the BIBLE 1st as accurate and historical and go from there in your search rather than Assuming it's "myth" or "historical fictions" until proven otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
As for science, I believe it will eventually join with faith both by honest compromise. But not if they insist onbeing adversaries.

jus' My take.
cool,
My take is that neither Christianity or Science have to compromise but both have to be honest.
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Old 03-07-2018, 11:44 AM
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Default Re: Stephen Hawking says he knows what happened before the dawn of time

I don't deny these findings of "evidence." But they do not change the facts concerning the BIBLE a collection of inspired stories written by MEN. For each instance of supposed validation of a biblical narrative, there is one where two ancient texts conflict. Proves nothing either way.

Apologies but, I have nothing I feel the need to prove and tire of the argument.

Believing the Bible is a TRUE and ACCURATE FACTUAL HISTORY is foolish. And frankly, it's not the purpose of the scripture. For that, read my signature.
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Old 03-07-2018, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Stephen Hawking says he knows what happened before the dawn of time

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
I don't deny these findings of "evidence." But they do not change the facts concerning the BIBLE a collection of inspired stories written by MEN. For each instance of supposed validation of a biblical narrative, there is one where two ancient texts conflict. Proves nothing either way.

Apologies but, I have nothing I feel the need to prove and tire of the argument.

Believing the Bible is a TRUE and ACCURATE FACTUAL HISTORY is foolish. And frankly, it's not the purpose of the scripture. For that, read my signature.
you called much of the Bible mythology Franc seems to me that might be called "denial".
you seem to assume that since the Bible was written by Men that God ... whom you believe in... WAS NOT ABLE to direct the accurately when it comes to ALL facts it presents.
And State out right here you thinks it's FOOLISH to believe so.

You assert you know the "true" PURPOSE of the Bible is not Factual where history is concerned.
your tag line says sola gratia, sola fide, sola scriptura.
But i have to ask how can you be sure of Grace and Faith if it's FOOLISH to trust the Scriptures? If it's Inaccurate in areas that are somewhat verifiable why assume that the HUMAN writers were accurate in other areas?

I'll say it again I think you should REEXAMINE the evidence, i suspect you might be surprised at HOW historically FACTUAL these inspired men were Franc.
the God of Grace has NO problem guiding men in the creation of fully factual scripture. Seems to me folk would be foolish to assume otherwise.

But hey, If you don't want to discuss it anymore that's cool. But If you want to assert negative things about the accuracy of the Bible in any area be prepared to back it up with some facts. not just your personal opinion.
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Old 03-07-2018, 08:34 PM
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Default Re: Stephen Hawking says he knows what happened before the dawn of time

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you called much of the Bible mythology Franc seems to me that might be called "denial".
you seem to assume that since the Bible was written by Men that God ... whom you believe in... WAS NOT ABLE to direct the accurately when it comes to ALL facts it presents.
And State out right here you thinks it's FOOLISH to believe so.

You assert you know the "true" PURPOSE of the Bible is not Factual where history is concerned.
your tag line says sola gratia, sola fide, sola scriptura.
But i have to ask how can you be sure of Grace and Faith if it's FOOLISH to trust the Scriptures? If it's Inaccurate in areas that are somewhat verifiable why assume that the HUMAN writers were accurate in other areas?

I'll say it again I think you should REEXAMINE the evidence, i suspect you might be surprised at HOW historically FACTUAL these inspired men were Franc.
the God of Grace has NO problem guiding men in the creation of fully factual scripture. Seems to me folk would be foolish to assume otherwise.

But hey, If you don't want to discuss it anymore that's cool. But If you want to assert negative things about the accuracy of the Bible in any area be prepared to back it up with some facts. not just your personal opinion.
Are you in denial of God's message through out the bible? It doesn't rest on the validity of every word written originally, much less after suffrage of a dozen translations.

I will not play word games with anyone about scriptures or historical accuracy of the narrative. I do not need to feel His wounds to believe.

Do you?
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Old 03-08-2018, 05:40 AM
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Default Re: Stephen Hawking says he knows what happened before the dawn of time

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Are you in denial of God's message through out the bible?
no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
It doesn't rest on the validity of every word written originally, much less after suffrage of a dozen translations.

I will not play word games with anyone about scriptures or historical accuracy of the narrative. I do not need to feel His wounds to believe.
the validity of every word in the original,... i trust was perfectly handled By God via men in the originals.

the suffrage of the translators... has been checked and rechecked by looking at 10X+more copies and copies which are closer in age to the original text than ANY other books from antiquity. There's nothing that compares by way of copies to compare to CHECK what and where and IF changes have been made Franc..
Many changes or differences are known and NOTED in most good study bibles. And scholars acknowledge that ,by far, most of the differences from the originals are simply changes that don't change meaning AT ALL. as in "They all met next day" to "The next day they met." And the removal or additions of articles like "the" and "a"

I don't know what you mean by "word games with Scriptures". So no i guess i don't play them.

And I don't play with the historical accuracy of the narrative either. I take it a face value.
If it says they crossed the Red Sea and were in the wilderness for 40 years then that's what happened historically. it's not foolish myth that i should wisely discard to get to the "real meaning" what ever that is.

And no I don't need to feel the wounds to believe,
but i do need to trust the record we have in the scriptures is historically valid.
How can we be sure there were wounds AT ALL Franc, if you don't trust the original writers to record it factually or the copiers to copy it correctly?
If the account of Jesus's death and Resurrection doesn't have to be FACTUALLY true then it's not much better than an Aseop's fable for advise and direction... or belief.


...For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished...
Did the original writers get that quote of Jesus right? did the copiers copy it correctly?
...For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty....
Peter is SAID to be original writer, do you know any different? Did he write this correctly? Did the copiers copy it correctly?
... And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. ...
It's reported the Paul wrote this. Did he write this correctly? Did the copiers copy it correctly? These are question YOU seem to pose here Franc not me.

I'm no scholar but personally I've look into enough scholarly research at this point that i'm satisfied of the historical accuracy of the writers, the content of the narrative historical and spiritual and the veracity of the copies.
I used to be an agnostic franc. So the questions YOU pose and the POV you present isn't new to me, but at this point I'm satisfied.

are you?
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:29 AM
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Default Re: Stephen Hawking says he knows what happened before the dawn of time

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no.


the validity of every word in the original,... i trust was perfectly handled By God via men in the originals.

the suffrage of the translators... has been checked and rechecked by looking at 10X+more copies and copies which are closer in age to the original text than ANY other books from antiquity. There's nothing that compares by way of copies to compare to CHECK what and where and IF changes have been made Franc..
Many changes or differences are known and NOTED in most good study bibles. And scholars acknowledge that ,by far, most of the differences from the originals are simply changes that don't change meaning AT ALL. as in "They all met next day" to "The next day they met." And the removal or additions of articles like "the" and "a"

I don't know what you mean by "word games with Scriptures". So no i guess i don't play them.

And I don't play with the historical accuracy of the narrative either. I take it a face value.
If it says they crossed the Red Sea and were in the wilderness for 40 years then that's what happened historically. it's not foolish myth that i should wisely discard to get to the "real meaning" what ever that is.

And no I don't need to feel the wounds to believe,
but i do need to trust the record we have in the scriptures is historically valid.
How can we be sure there were wounds AT ALL Franc, if you don't trust the original writers to record it factually or the copiers to copy it correctly?
If the account of Jesus's death and Resurrection doesn't have to be FACTUALLY true then it's not much better than an Aseop's fable for advise and direction... or belief.


...For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished...
Did the original writers get that quote of Jesus right? did the copiers copy it correctly?
...For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty....
Peter is SAID to be original writer, do you know any different? Did he write this correctly? Did the copiers copy it correctly?
... And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. ...
It's reported the Paul wrote this. Did he write this correctly? Did the copiers copy it correctly? These are question YOU seem to pose here Franc not me.

I'm no scholar but personally I've look into enough scholarly research at this point that i'm satisfied of the historical accuracy of the writers, the content of the narrative historical and spiritual and the veracity of the copies.
I used to be an agnostic franc. So the questions YOU pose and the POV you present isn't new to me, but at this point I'm satisfied.

are you?

You are welcome to the last word but this thread is about Hawking and the Big Bang. Not your persistent attempts to extend and argument I have repeatedly expressed a desire to avoid.

Because validity of the Biblical story is irrelevant to Hawking's theoretical concepts and the sterility of honest science.



we are done here.

Religion & Philosophy - Political Wrinkles

You'll note I almost never post there.
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:48 AM
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Default Re: Stephen Hawking says he knows what happened before the dawn of time

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You are welcome to the last word but this thread is about Hawking and the Big Bang. Not your persistent attempts to extend and argument I have repeatedly expressed a desire to avoid.
Because validity of the Biblical story is irrelevant to Hawking's theoretical concepts and the sterility of honest science.
we are done here.
Religion & Philosophy - Political Wrinkles

You'll note I almost never post there.
OK no problem, But Franc in your last post you asked me questions concerning religion, my take on the bible's veracity and faith, elsewhere in the thread you mentioned men in black holes with flashlights, the foolishness of others faith ,and what the Bible was MEANT to do Franc. So be honest, and don't act like I took the thread on the tangent without your help. I simply replied and asked you questions as well.

no worries

Hawking ideas are pure mathematical speculating based on theories and hypothesis that are riddled with problems and assumptions and have little to no observational data to back them up to the point where he takes it.
Like Multiverses and Aliens it's fun speculation and all but, he does not "KNOW" how the origin of the universe came about.
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:00 AM
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Default Re: Stephen Hawking says he knows what happened before the dawn of time

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OK no problem, But Franc in your last post you asked me questions concerning religion, my take on the bible's veracity and faith, elsewhere in the thread you mentioned men in black holes with flashlights, the foolishness of others faith ,and what the Bible was MEANT to do Franc. So be honest, and don't act like I took the thread on the tangent without your help. I simply replied and asked you questions as well.

no worries

Hawking ideas are pure mathematical speculating based on theories and hypothesis that are riddled with problems and assumptions and have little to no observational data to back them up to the point where he takes it.
Like Multiverses and Aliens it's fun speculation and all but, he does not "KNOW" how the origin of the universe came about.


The very same could, and is, said about the Bible. I am determined tobe objective about both.

NOW do you understand?
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Old 03-08-2018, 10:27 AM
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Default Re: Stephen Hawking says he knows what happened before the dawn of time

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
[/B]

The very same could, and is, said about the Bible. I am determined tobe objective about both.

NOW do you understand?
So you can say the
"ideas --in Bible--- are pure mathematical speculating based on theories and hypothesis that are riddled with problems and assumptions and have little to no observational data to back them up to the point where he takes it."

no, sorry, I don't see it as similar at all.
everything in the Bible is based starts on earth, mainly says on earth, and on observed eyewitness accounts, not abstract hypothesis, and it's not riddled with major problems or assumptions.
So no, as i said i think you need to look again at the evidence available franc it seems to me to think too lightly of the basic text. And frankly of Jesus Christ words concerning all the issues. Was Jesus Speculating about God, rising from the dead, Noah, Adam, Heaven, Hell or did he KNOW?

But basically the difference i see between Hawking assertions is that the evidence for the Bible and it's content is similar to the evidence for a murder case. It's finding the truth to a historical narrative concerning persons and events.
And we have to ask honestly, In any murder case will you have ALL the answers to every question? probably not. But is it possible to have ENOUGH information to CONFIDENTLY send someone to the electric chair? Often the answer is Yes.
The evidence and reasoning that it takes to get there is the same to build confidence in the Bible narrative.
With origins cosmology many mathematical constructions that are ADDED, and several commonly known NATURAL observational issues and inconsistencies are IGNORED or downplayed because their trying to make a case to get back to an answer. An Answer much farther back in time than any other historical event humans try to examine. In a situation where there were NO eye witnesses (but God). AND where physics literally has to MADE UP (by men) because it's not in effect TODAY. things like that put the Hawkings assertions on a different level IMO.


so nope.
I don't understand what you mean exactly.
Especially since you asserted that thinking of the bible as factual historically is FOOLISH. that doesn't sound to me like you're examining it "OBJECTIVELY" franc. sounds like you've already made up your mind against it in some ways.

so no, i don't understand what you mean.
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Hope is the dream of the waking man.
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For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:6-8

Last edited by mr wonder; 03-08-2018 at 10:39 AM..
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