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Religion & Philosophy Discuss Germany moves to ban Scientology at the General Discussion; Originally Posted by dabateman Well I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree upon our interpretations of ...

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Old 12-11-2007, 03:16 AM
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Default Re: Germany moves to ban Scientology

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Well I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree upon our interpretations of words such as 'rights', 'benefits', and 'discrimination'. When a large segment is denied access to benefits and rights (ie. survivorship and the like) on the basis of gender, orientation, race, etc, that is discrimination. While it's true that anyone can marry today, they must do so in a heterosexual format. Confining homosexuals to a heterosexual relationship in order to receive equal treatment is absurd. Demanding that homosexuals marry for benefits instead of love is demanding that homosexuals devalue the concept of marriage which is more than the accumulation of benefits.
I feel totally secure that my partner and I are just as protected as any married couple when it comes to those benefits, barring the tax breaks which actually have more to do with having children than the marriage itself. I was not discriminated against when I had a will drawn up and health directives which give the same powers as that marriage license. More importantly, I understand that the marriage license is not a proclamation of love and in no way legitimizes a relationship beyond what legitimacy the two people involved demonstrate by their commitment.
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:20 AM
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Default Re: Germany moves to ban Scientology

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I feel totally secure that my partner and I are just as protected as any married couple when it comes to those benefits, barring the tax breaks which actually have more to do with having children than the marriage itself. I was not discriminated against when I had a will drawn up and health directives which give the same powers as that marriage license. More importantly, I understand that the marriage license is not a proclamation of love and in no way legitimizes a relationship beyond what legitimacy the two people involved demonstrate by their commitment.
And while it's true that a marriage license will not a relationship make, it's also true that the government should not treat your relationship different than the relationship of heterosexual couples.
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:38 AM
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Default Re: Germany moves to ban Scientology

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And while it's true that a marriage license will not a relationship make, it's also true that the government should not treat your relationship different than the relationship of heterosexual couples.
Since there is no type of relationship required for a marriage license (you even said yourself that you can do anything from marry an illegal to marrying a friend), the government is not treating "relationships" in any way at all.
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:11 PM
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Post Re: Germany moves to ban Scientology

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I find this story disturbing and so should we all..
I do find it disturbing.

I have heard some of the "arguments" against scientology regarding the use of "test equipment", centering around beliefs of how the equipment works and reports conclusions on individuals which are reportedly based on claims thoroughly unsubstantiated by science.
The arguments I have heard center around legal accusations of "fraud".

It's an interesting question.
If I told you that I could sell you a machine that would make you feel better, there are medical organizations which could get involved and condemn my sale of the machine.
But if I incorporate a "religion" into the machine, does that avoid legal attacks of my "machine"?

While I find the "banning" of the religion a rather extreme step, I think there are underlying questions of "fraud vs religion" that are relevant.
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Old 12-11-2007, 04:01 PM
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Default Re: Germany moves to ban Scientology

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I do find it disturbing.

I have heard some of the "arguments" against scientology regarding the use of "test equipment", centering around beliefs of how the equipment works and reports conclusions on individuals which are reportedly based on claims thoroughly unsubstantiated by science.
The arguments I have heard center around legal accusations of "fraud".

It's an interesting question.
If I told you that I could sell you a machine that would make you feel better, there are medical organizations which could get involved and condemn my sale of the machine.
But if I incorporate a "religion" into the machine, does that avoid legal attacks of my "machine"?

While I find the "banning" of the religion a rather extreme step, I think there are underlying questions of "fraud vs religion" that are relevant.
Exactly and I do understand the ramifications involved here but the outright "banning" of a religion is too extreme. I'm sure there are other ways to solve this dilemma.
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Old 12-11-2007, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: Germany moves to ban Scientology

I seem to remember reading something that said that Germany does not consider Scientology to be a religion.
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Old 12-11-2007, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: Germany moves to ban Scientology

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I seem to remember reading something that said that Germany does not consider Scientology to be a religion.
The majority of European countries consider it to be a cult, not a religion period, so they don't afford them protection under the classification of religion...

The only countries that do extend religious protection/classes it as a religion are: US, Spain, Taiwan, Tanzania, Zimbabwa, South Africa, Australia, Sweden, and New Zealand.

The UK, France, and Germany are the most active in having it listed/watched as a cult, out of the other European cultures...

Actually, we had a huge discussion about them on the other board...Remember BBC's special on them and the controversy surrounding Sweeney's documentary in May of this year?

I do find it funny, that Scientology has people followed and monitored, who they feel are against them...Yet they are upset that the same is being done to them by the goverments of Germany, France, and the UK? LOL!!!
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Old 12-11-2007, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Germany moves to ban Scientology

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I seem to remember reading something that said that Germany does not consider Scientology to be a religion.
What is important is that the Scientologists consider Scientology to be a religion. I'm not familiar with the German constitution but it could be politically damaging for them to totally ban Scientology! They risk setting a precedent and alienating people who do not even follow Scientology.

Some interesting reading...

IS SCIENTOLOGY A RELIGION?
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Old 12-12-2007, 02:45 PM
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Default Re: Germany moves to ban Scientology

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What is important is that the Scientologists consider Scientology to be a religion.
Normally I would agree with you. However, even the founder of Scientology didn't consider it to be a real religion.

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I'm not familiar with the German constitution but it could be politically damaging for them to totally ban Scientology! They risk setting a precedent and alienating people who do not even follow Scientology.
Yeah, I am with you here. I don't think it is a good move to "ban" the religion. However, I see nothing stopping them from prosecuting the fraud aspect of this "religion".
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Old 12-12-2007, 03:24 PM
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Default Re: Germany moves to ban Scientology

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Yeah, I am with you here. I don't think it is a good move to "ban" the religion. However, I see nothing stopping them from prosecuting the fraud aspect of this "religion".
Agreed...

I assume they have laws already on the books for that...
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