Originally Posted by chuck7251

Once again, without using the bible(which includes the OT) prove the bible. You cannot disprove the Stephen Kings It, and if I only use that as a reference, I can continue to call it true too. It is easy to fulfill prophecies when you want to. I can predict that water will turn red when I add Cherry Kool Aid... especially since I have done it before.



Interestingly enough, Jews don't believe it was validated. That is why they are Jews and not Christians. If I were to only use the Koran as a reference I could undoubtedly prove the Koran. Which is why I have asked you, time and time again, for a secular source as proof.



As the second largest religion in the world, I would bet millions of Islams would say their book is as valid as yours.

Of course, without using your respective books, neither of you can prove anything.

Originally Posted by chuck7251

Wasn't Paul a pharisee?

Again, the True Jews of today do not believe that your messiah proved anything. More or less they believe he was a nice man, but that the stories may have been... embellished a little.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

The ad nausaem request to prove your disbelief is indeed "circular reasoning". I have nothing to prove, as I already believe, it is you that must prove your point, that is if you expect others to accept it as TRUTH. It is a simple concept, Faith cometh by hearing, and Hearing by the Word of God. If one does not accept it as truth, there is no truth to be found in it. As I always say, Is it not grand to be made in the image of God, that allows you NOT TO BELIEVE, but merely makes a request thereof, as such, God indeed could present proof positive to the physical world, but has chosen to present His proof in a manner which requires a first step of faith to demonstrate this choice is made out of free choice. I call people such as you the CIRCULAR SECULARS. Because there is no proof good enough to be accepted as your bigoted preconceptions are firmly grounded in the ideology of self worship and you cannot accept there are indeed two planes of reality one spiritual and one physical, and as such, even God had to give up on people such as these, " professing themselves to be wise, they have become fools" -- Romans 1:22 It is very clear that secular humanism is nothing short of idolatry, as the idol worshiped is the pseudo intelligence found in man. That has proven that it is incapable of answering the most elemental question concerning life.

Just what is the force that quickens this inert mass of elements that we call the body human. What is it, what is it consisted of, where does it go when the flesh has expired, as energy as been proven incapable of being destroyed only altered. They can in fact take any example of life, plant or animal, disassemble and examine it down to the last cell and detail every physical fact about such. But when the parts are placed back exactly as they were originally found, something indeed is found missing not to be captured again in any experimental sitting. LIFE. Yet, they expect us to believe they (the pseudos) know more about LIFE than He that designed this which they are not capable of understanding? As indeed, how in fact can the product produced consist of more than that which it was drawn from, be it nature or deity, man is obviously inferior to such. I simply bend a knee and accept my place there of, to the grand energy that created all. BD

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

And again, it is "moot" what the Jew of today believes, as the only truth about God is presented FROM God, and that is the revealed WORD OF GOD.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

Can you see the CIRCLE that your logic has self gestated? You asked the same question several posts ago, now low and behold, due to your bigoted preconceptions, you not only just glance over retorts from others, you accept it as truth that what ever is contained in these retorts just absolutely has to be inferior to your vast secular intelligence that you have been brainwashed into believing that you possess.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

Now, due to your pompous pseudo attitude

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

you do not even realize that we have come full circle, and you simply ask the same question over and over ad nauseam.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

AS everyone can clearly see, you deem what people believe to be superior, SUPERIOR EVEN TO THE TRUTH

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

thus, you have proven that you worship the human mind and its bi-products, the thoughts that produce belief, whether these beliefs are grounded in the facts of truth or not.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

And from the view point of the religion professed by the Jews of the World, that standard of truth is in fact the Holy Bible

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

this standard declares their beliefs, false doctrine.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

And the only way they can continue to hold these false beliefs is to declare part of that Holy Bible...a lie, or a Half Truth. And as such they have made the entirety a lie, because A HALF TRUTH IS A FULL LIE. BD

Originally Posted by chuck7251

There is no proof that your book is the "word of god"... as far as can be proven it is the "word of Little Suzy Rottencrotch"



Actually... the circle is simply asking the same question and expecting a relevant response. I will try again, though asking you to use any source that is not biblical in nature is like asking a fish to live on land... without using the bible, prove that the bible is the inspired word of god. Also, brainwashing is going to church and then dismissing everything that can be proven through science... you know... facts...


Considering that the prefix "pseudo" does not appear anywhere in the bible, perhaps you should refrain from using it. My attitude is far from false... or pretend... it is real. I really do have a callous attitude about people like you... people who think that just because they have swallowed something they were programmed into thinking that they are better than anyone else.



Actually, I do realize that. I ask the same question, you find new ways to not answer it! Instead of being intellectually honest and saying "I can't", or "I don't know"... you continuously come up with some unrelated garbage. Until you can, without using the bible or Christian faith, prove that your bible is the "inspired word of God", I will continuously ask you to do so. I suppose I would stop when you decided to stop being a dolt and just admitted you could not do it. It takes a real man to admit when he is wrong or unable to do something.



I have actually yet to state what I believe. I can point at a million Jews, and I know their faith is every bit as valid as yours... you are the one saying they are wrong. I am not even saying you are wrong, I am just saying prove what you believe if you think that someone else is wrong.



And I would have to admit, yes I believe in facts. Damn, silly me.



No, actually it is not. They do not believe in the new covenant, which means to them the "Holy Bible" is purely a nice embellished story about a carpenter.



Right, your book says they are wrong. However, there is no proof that your book is right. There is as much proof of your book, as there is of Dianetics.



Well, the two books were separately written. As far as the Jews are concerned, your book is a lie, and theirs is truth. Some politicians just thought it would be easier to sell a religion if it had history... so they stole the history from the Jews. So, as far as Jews are concerned, your book is a FULL LIE.

So, without using your bible, what makes your book right and their beliefs wrong?

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

Tis the thing about being observant and comprehending the "actions" of people, just as you "demonstrate" what you believe, you do not have to "say" anything.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

And the "pomposity" and pseudo intellect is demonstrated by your continuing "demand" (not request) that it is "I" that must prove to you the reasons that "you" do not believe something and your claims are based only on what you say, as you have proven nothing (pseudo).

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

As I said, they are your disbeliefs, not mine, thus you have the responsibility to prove "ME" wrong.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

As I said, I could care less what you choose to believe or not believe.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

But it is nothing less that pompous secular humanism that presents the automatic assumption that everything that you happen to disagree with is incorrect by just your statement declaring it as such. You have continually circled the subject and continue to end up exactly in the same position in which you began.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

On the other hand, I have presented several posts of enlightenment as to "why" I accept the testimonies of eye witness reports that confirm the words of the Holy Bible as being divine in nature.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

Since the only thing that you seem to understand is secular humanistic physical proof. History actual offers confirmation to the fact of the divine nature of the words contained in the Holy Bible.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

For instance we have a prophecy found first in the in the Old Testament that declares God's intentions of taking away the covenant delivered on Mt. Sinai and presented by Moses, as the prophet declares that a New Covenant will take its place and the physical nation of Israel will we destroyed -- Jer. 31:31-36. Vs. 36 declares,"If these ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever." Next we find,"And shalt say onto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city (Jerusalem), as one breaketh a potters vessel, that cannot be made whole again...." -- Jer. 19:11. Next we find in the New Testament the prophecy of Jesus declaring that the kingdom of Israel will be taken from them and given to another nation (gentiles) for their unbelief, and this would happen in that very generation in which Jesus was speaking such. -- Matthew 24:4-32. Also notice the declaration of the Apostle Paul that concludes that the Old Law has been done away with and nailed to the cross of Christ -- Col. 2:14. This fulfills the prophecy of Jer. 31:36, and the rest is confirmed not only by the words found in the scriptures of the New Testament but demonstrated as true by the facts of History.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

As the physical nation of Israel was destroyed from existence and that destruction began exactly as both Christ and the prophecy found in the Old Testament declared, as the Old Covenant was made none effective and in fact both the city of Jerusalem and the people of Israel were taken from the sight of God. This began to be played out within the same generation of Jesus, just as He declared.

Siege of Jerusalem (70) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by chuck7251

Blah Blah blah blah... yep, that is about what you said



Improper use of the prefix "pseudo". Furthermore, I am not asking, or demanding that you prove what I do not believe. I am saying that if you are going to tell a group of people they are wrong you need more than YOUR book to back up your claims. To a Jew, or even a Wicca or Atheist, your book is a bunch of artfuly written fairy tales. It has no more meaning than Grimms or Little Golden Books. Of course you are being obtuse and choosing to ignore that simple fact, or are being obstinate in regards to being unable to prove anything. {Pseudo, falsely claiming superior knowledge}



How do you figure? I am not saying you are wrong. I am "demanding" that you back up your claims using more than one source which I(playing the role of Jew, Wiccan, Atheist) vest no authority in. You are basically covering your ears and regurgitating verses. However, using nothing but the bible to prove the bible is like using Dianetics to prove Scientology.

{Again, just what part of the Bible would one find the history as offered by WIKIPEDIA, just what Book is that located in?}



Ok, but since none of this discussion was ever about what I believe then that statement was pointless.

{That was the point it is not about what you believe, its about what you DON'T BELIEVE, and you DEMAND, others present proof of that you dont believe. You declare everything a lie, yet present nothing to back up the claim. I hope that you are never on a jury, as you think that WORDS are sufficient to condemn something as false. As always its up to the prosecutor to offer evidence to convict, after all it was YOU that brought the charges of falsehood, not "I". Yet, you still want to invert the process and demand that I prove MY innocence instead of you having to prove my guilt of the lie that you declare is presented. Talk about a paradox, and yet you can't seem to grasp the absurdity of the circular fashion in which you have been trying to direct a supposed debate, with all the information demanded from the position of your non belief, and none accepted from you on the side of my belief, as the only retort offered by you is NOPE, and backed only by your OPINION. On the other hand I have offered eye witness accounts, actual HISTORY, and proven that both books of the Bible do actually work in harmony, despite your absurd claim to the contrary, again backed by nothing but your opinion, as all was just summarily dismissed in the pomposity of declaring YOUR OPINION as correct, all the while offering NO PROOF that dismisses the Bible as a valid source of truth.}



Actually, I have not done that. I have not said you were incorrect. I am actually pretty open to someone who can think straight. If you actually believe in God, use the mind he gave you, and start doing some research. No, all you can do is thump your bible... you realize it is a tool not a weapon... right?

{And if I am not incorrect, that must make me correct, right? Again, with the circular logic? I am not incorrect, yet it is you that has been proven to say that Christianity is not true. And as far as researching, do you mean obtaining Secular opinions, formated in the religion of humanism? Or do you
You mean like the fact of confirming the prophesies of both Books of the Bible in HISTORY. That you conveniently dismissed by claiming the absurd notion that the Nation of Israel never vanished from history. Just how do you explain the 2000 year gap, until the secular nation of Israel was created by UN mandate in 1947, was the nation there all along, and just invisible to everyone except the Pseudos (FALSE, declaring validity with no proof}



You have done no such thing. You have presented bible verses

. {Again, what Book is Wikipedia to be found in?}

Pretend for a second you are in court, and you are told that the bible is inadmissible as evidence... now present your case.

{Again the pomposity of TELLING SOMEONE THAT SOMETHING IS INADMISSBLE. When it (the Bible) is the basis and foundation of the faith which you are DECLARING FALSE? How can it be dismissed as inadmissible, when the prosecutor (YOU) have brought up the charges of falsehood?}


{ And as of yet you have failed in any of your pompous retorts to address even one iota as to what makes the eye witness accounts invalid, other than your "OPINION", and we know what they say about opinion.}



This is what I have asked for. Let's see if you present it without biblical contamination:



I guess I expected too much... you used the NT to prove the OT... yet have shown nothing in a real history book. {AGAIN IN BOLD TYPE, WHAT PART OF THE BIBLE CAN THE SECULAR SITE WIKIPEDIA BE FOUND?}



I am pretty sure there are still Isaelis... and there is still a Jerusalem... when I look on the map I see Israel. Seems all are still standing. {YOU ARE SURE, YET THEY NEVER EXISTED AS A NATION PRIOR TO 1947}

Ok, you are in court... the bible is inadmissible as evidence... state your case...

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

You see the pomposity? You summarily dismissed all the evidence presented by just "declaring" it false. You ignored the truth of history.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

As Israel did "vanish" from the face of the earth and , , the Israel of the Bible has never been witnessed again. What we have in the middle east is a nation that was created by UN Mandate in 1947, in a semi-democratic tradition, not the nation of Israel that God said would vanish from His blessings, as was PROVEN, DID.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

A supposed Jewish nation that was constructed by man and ruled in the fashion of man, with no tribal identity, no priesthood that offers consul to the Monarch that was placed by the blessing of God, in fact no Monarch, is not the Israel of the Bible. Yet you ignore history that demonstrates the facts of an occurrence that was foretold 40 years prior in the New Testament and centuries prior in the Old. This indeed is getting old, just like a child in a hair chair that keeps throwing the toy upon the floor when you hand it back to him, he merely throws it again. You give no serious effort to offer any evidence, yet demand that I present more. It's a joke, as obviously you have nothing to present expect the childish, Nope, you're wrong.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

You declare that I expect you to believe

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

No I expect you present the evidence to your claims that tells me that the Bible has no truth.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

I suggest you take a few courses in history, science, and comprehension and stop surfing the web and parroting information that you have no idea how to defend.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

AND JUST WHAT PART OF THE BIBLE IS THE BOOK OF WIKIPEDIA TO BE FOUND IN, as it was this online website that demonstrated the fact that the prophesies contained in Both Books of the Bible foretold were indeed correct.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

And as such you still declared the both(OLD and NEW Testament) to be separated and containing different information, yet we find the same information, one conforming to the other, demonstrating the continued link of divinity.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

This is kind'a fun, watching you present line after line of opinion and then puffing your chest out like you have demonstrated some great task, and what you keep doing is presenting NOPE.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

Again, if you do not want to believe....DON'T.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

But do not present charges of falsehood and then DEMAND someone prove you wrong, when it you that is attempting to prosecute the validity of MY faith

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

as I have said nothing as what you want to believe, in fact I have stated, it makes no difference to me

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

yet you insist on trying to demonstrate that your non-belief is superior

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

as I said, its a JOKE, as you can not prove anything to dismiss the Bible as a source of truth.

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

If its wrong PROVE IT. The online DEBATING tactics 101 does not work well when the other party does not let you lead them around by the nose, does it? BD

Originally Posted by chuck7251

No I didn't ignore anything. Let me ask you this... if I predict that a Democrat will win the election, and it happens, am I a messiah?

It is easy to look at something that it is repetitive and "predict" the outcome.



Obviously this is not true. The people believed that they were the rightful heirs to the land because of their faith and heritage. The nation of Israel lived within them. If I were ultimate ruler and outlawed Christianity, would you stop believing in Christ? Of course not. Would you still call yourself a Christian? I bet you would. Just as the Israelis continued to do until they rightfully got their land back.




No, I ignore that this is a valid prediction. Whatever. With all of the miracles in the bible, you would think that you could come up with something. What evidence would you like me to show? I showed you a whole page of inconsistencies and contradictions which you ignored. Big surprise... you ignored them because to admit they are there is to question the divinity of the book, or the omniscience of the muse.



Not once have I done this. As expected, instead of coming up with something that was asked for you instead redirect by using childish misdirection.



Ok, forst show me where I said that the bible has no truth, then I will happily do as you ask. You can't, because I didn't. Stop being willfully obtuse. You are making yourself look like an ass.



Wow, ok... yours is the only set of religions that was voted on by politicians instead of created by a divine spirit or clergymen. The counsel of Nicea was held to consolidate the teachings of Christ, however, books were voted out and others were edited. That is historical fact.

Also, Science has proven that the flood could not have taken place as described in the bible. Had it taken place, there could physically be no survivors. Also, if the ark were the size that the bible claims, it could not have held 1% of the animals of the earth, nevermind 2 of each kind. Just bugs alone would have filled, and sunk, the boat.

As far as Comprehension, I understand perfectly that you are dodging and unable to do what is asked of you. I also comprehend that you are trying to make it look like I am being circular as a defense for your inability. Anything I have dismissed I have done because it was irrelevant to what was being asked.



Here's the funny thing about Wikipedia... I can now go to that site and create a story proving you wrong, and it will also be displayed as fact. Empires rise and fall. Nowhere in the "prophecies" did it say when these things would happen... the truth is that even if they did not happen yet you would believe it was coming.



Again, this is because of the counsel of Nicea. In order to create a religion that people would adhere to they had to have continuity from something that was familiar. Much like the book of Mormon, which just piggy backed on to the bible. You have shown NO link of divinity, just a group with good editing skills.

Actually, this is another reference to history. Do you know why we celebrate Christmas in December... because it was originally a Pagan holiday and the muckity mucks thought they could indoctrinate more people into this religion if they also had some of the same holidays...



Actually, all I keep doing is asking you to do something, and you continually fail. I am not chest puffing, or cowtowing, or any kind of I am proud of me dance... I am just sitting here completely mystified by your lack of intellectual honesty.



And again, this is not about my beliefs... this is about another religions beliefs, and your sad attempts to call them wrong... when you have no proof that you are right.



No, I am not "prosecuting" your faith... I am calling you out on being willfully obtuse. If I were prosecuting your faith I would have come up with a compelling openning and closing statement. If anything, you are prosecuting Jews and I am playing the role of defense.



I hope you do not witness to people(as this is one of the major parts of Christianity) because as soon as you are challenged you roll up in a ball and scream out pointless things. Also, you have three times tried to state what it is I believe... once calling me a secular humanist... all three times I have tried to get you back on track... which is about what the Jews believe... all three times you have proven that you drank the Kool Aid.



No. Actually, I have alot of respect for people who are Christian, but also use their minds. You continuously prove you are not in that group. You do so by calling me names and dodging direct questions.



Actually, science proves that at least the story of the ark is not true. Of course, it will have some facts mixed in with the stories... just as most of Stephen Kings novels do.




This is not a debate.... this is me continually asking you to do one thing, and you continually dancing around it. I do not WANT to attack the bible, as I do not want to offend some of the decent people that are here.

You seem to have no problem attacking Jews though... you are openly saying they are liars. You are making this statement, I am telling you to back it up. Backing it up with your book does no good if only your people believe in your book. Millions of people believe in your religion... millions of people also believe that Elvis is alive, as is Hitler...

So, without using the bible... make your case that the bible is absolute truth...