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Religion & Philosophy Discuss Religion and rationality at the General Discussion; Has anyone else noted that out popular culture seems to view religion as the exact opposite of that which is ...

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Old 06-28-2021, 12:10 PM
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Default Religion and rationality

Has anyone else noted that out popular culture seems to view religion as the exact opposite of that which is rational and reasonable?

I am a very rational person--as in very!--and if I simply could be convinced that Christianity is basically irrational, I would immediately abandon it.

Yes, immediately!

But I take serious offense at the patronizing view of some: Why, religion is just an irrational belief, handed down by our parents (and grandparents, and great grandparents), that is to be compartmentalized in our respective minds--separate from that which is rational.

Do others find this just as offensive as I do?
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Old 06-28-2021, 04:30 PM
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Default Re: Religion and rationality

pjohns
I used to be agnostic, and even while an agnostic I never understood the smuggery of some atheist, agnostics and so-called rational secular folks. I never felt their case was that great to simply wholesale dismiss religion and make fun.

I knew sincere religious people and could never really bring myself to dismiss the idea of the possibility that there might be some reality to some supernatural experience.

But the smuggery of some secular folks became more understandable after reading a few passages.
Romans chapter 1 hits it on the head in one way but other passages speak to it in another.

Quote:
The Apostle Paul speaking to the church at Corinth
For the message of the cross is foolishness [absurd and illogical] to those who are perishing and spiritually dead [because they reject it], but to us who are being saved [by God’s grace] it is [the manifestation of] the power of God. For it is written and forever remains written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise [the philosophy of the philosophers],
And the cleverness of the clever [who do not know Me] I will nullify.”
Where is the wise man (philosopher)? Where is the scribe (scholar)? Where is the debater (logician, orator) of this age? Has God not exposed the foolishness of this world’s wisdom? For since the world through all its [earthly] wisdom failed to recognize God, God in His wisdom was well-pleased through the [c]foolishness of the message preached [regarding salvation] to save those who believe [in Christ and welcome Him as Savior]. For Jews demand signs (attesting miracles), and Greeks pursue [worldly] wisdom and philosophy, but we preach Christ crucified, [a message which is] to Jews a stumbling block [that provokes their opposition], and to Gentiles foolishness [just utter nonsense], but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks (Gentiles), Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. [This is] because the foolishness of God [is not foolishness at all and] is wiser than men [far beyond human comprehension], and the weakness of God is stronger than men [far beyond the limits of human effort].

Amplified Bible 1 Corinthians 1:18-25


Paul speaking to King Agrippa at his trial
“So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. That is why some Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

At this point Festus (Roman Governor) interrupted Paul’s defense. “You are out of your mind, Paul!” he shouted. “Your great learning is driving you insane.”

“I am not insane, most excellent Festus,” Paul replied. “What I am saying is true and reasonable. The king is familiar with these things, and I can speak freely to him. I am convinced that none of this has escaped his notice, because it was not done in a corner. King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know you do.”
Acts 26:19-25

Jesus Speaking to the 11
This [is what] I command you: that you love and unselfishly seek the best for one another.
“If the world hates you [and it does], know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you belonged to the world, the world would love [you as] its own and would treat you with affection. But you are not of the world [you no longer belong to it], but I have chosen you out of the world. And because of this the world hates you. [/I]
Amplified Bible John 15:17-19

But sure, it bugs me... a little... sometimes... but as I've gotten older I've realized that NO ONE is very rational. The secular authorities in every field are often working off of emotions and CYA actions and are willfully ignorant of information that would upset cherished ideas. Often afraid to leave the "consensus" opinion even if the KNOW it's flawed. social status, inclusion and group think often supersede "rational thought" everywhere.
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Old 06-28-2021, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: Religion and rationality

Given the complete absence of evidence of the existence of a higher being, the rational reaction is to believe that such beings do not exist. Insistence that something you can neither see, hear, nor prove exists is inherently irrational.

Substitute the tooth fairy for Christ in your formulation and ask if belief in the tooth fairy is rational.
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Old 06-28-2021, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Religion and rationality

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Originally Posted by Constant_Slothrop View Post
Given the complete absence of evidence of the existence of a higher being, the rational reaction is to believe that such beings do not exist. Insistence that something you can neither see, hear, nor prove exists is inherently irrational.

Substitute the tooth fairy for Christ in your formulation and ask if belief in the tooth fairy is rational.
Weird that many on the Left don't believe a God exists but say "Biden is a moderate" with much less evidence...
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Old 06-28-2021, 08:34 PM
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Default Re: Religion and rationality

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
Weird that many on the Left don't believe a God exists but say "Biden is a moderate" with much less evidence...
It would be much more accurate, I think, to declare that Biden is the UnTrump.

But liberals appear to think that this, and being a "moderate," are entirely interchangeable...
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Old 06-28-2021, 08:41 PM
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Default Re: Religion and rationality

CS argues that belief in God is "irrational."

But that entirely misses the central point.

In the OP, I noted that some believe that religion is not merely "irrational," but a belief that should be "compartmentalized" in our minds.

Not abolished, mind you.

Just compartmentalized.

If it is "irrational" (as CS suggests), why practice the latter rather, than for the former?

(And--in the process--show utter condescension toward those of a different view?)
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Old 06-28-2021, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Religion and rationality

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
Weird that many on the Left don't believe a God exists but say "Biden is a moderate" with much less evidence...
I believe, based on actual observable evidence, that he's the most progressive president in modern history, which is a wonderful thing.
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Old 06-28-2021, 11:29 PM
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Default Re: Religion and rationality

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Originally Posted by Constant_Slothrop View Post
I believe, based on actual observable evidence, that he's the most progressive president in modern history, which is a wonderful thing.
I heard on the news that the Chinese had set foot on Uranus.
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Old 06-29-2021, 04:22 AM
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Default Re: Religion and rationality

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Has anyone else noted that out popular culture seems to view religion as the exact opposite of that which is rational and reasonable?

I am a very rational person--as in very!--and if I simply could be convinced that Christianity is basically irrational, I would immediately abandon it.

Yes, immediately!

But I take serious offense at the patronizing view of some: Why, religion is just an irrational belief, handed down by our parents (and grandparents, and great grandparents), that is to be compartmentalized in our respective minds--separate from that which is rational.

Do others find this just as offensive as I do?
Those people where they exist are worthy of an attempt at gentle rational witnessing.
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Old 06-29-2021, 08:37 AM
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Default Re: Religion and rationality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Constant_Slothrop View Post
Given the complete absence of evidence of the existence of a higher being, the rational reaction is to believe that such beings do not exist. Insistence that something you can neither see, hear, nor prove exists is inherently irrational.
CS, ... ummm no.
There is evidence, but some atheist aren't really open to seeing it. They play a game, that if used on ANYthing would show that nothing has enough evidence to show it's existence.


the game goes like this.
'Rational' skeptic : OK, JUST show me evidence that Joe Biden exist.
Bidenist : Here are pictures and video.
'Rational' skeptic : I hope you know pictures can be faked.
Bidenist : Here are records of his votes in congress.
'Rational' skeptic : those were written by people who believe in congress and tooth fairy congressman Joe Biden. obviously those can't be trusted.
Bidenist : Here's some DNA from Joe Biden from women who've been sniffed by him.
'Rational' skeptic : That could be from anyone. PLUS, why hasn't everyone been sniffed by him if he sniffs so much, hmmmm?
Bidenist : Here's a birth certificate and family members and doctors records who testify of his life.
'Rational' skeptic : you do know that i get a birth certificate for an 19 year old illegal alien saying she's Joe Biden in 24 hours right? how can you be so stupid?! And again with the friends and so-called family OF COURSE they believe in him, that's NOT evidence.
Bidenist : Here are people who were enemies of Joe Biden talking about how they didn't like actions he did as a congress person, how they ran against him and lost, how they tried to stop him. They have no reason to make him up.
'Rational' skeptic : of course the Bidenist movement is real but if you read those documents properly those people just didn't like the MOVEMENT not any real person name Joe Biden. Even many Bidenist scholars will admit that. why are you so ignorant?

Bottom line, no matter WHAT, they simply play an irrational skeptics GAME.
A game that where you couldn't prove to them you're own existence while standing in right in front of them.

I've talked to some of these type of guys before and finally asked 1,
OK, I've presented you with various lines of reason and evidence that God is real and you've rejected them all. So what kind of evidence would God have to produce to let you know he's real?
The guy said "I don't know, but if he's God he knows what would convince me."

Once I was talking to 2 guys and finally asked them,
OK, if they personally saw Jesus Christ come down from the sky, land in front of them, and then personally confirm everything in the bible would they believe in him?
They said, "No". They would believe it was alien tech or something else before they'd believe that it was Jesus.
SO bottom line, they'd believe ANYTHING but God and Jesus. They are COMMITTED to unbelief. Not really looking for evidence because there is nothing they'll accept.
Frankly, They simply don't LIKE the idea of God.
And PRETEND it's for rational reasons. And convince themselves that anyone who doesn't agree with them are "irrational". It's bizarre.
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For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
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