How would you explane the percicution of the Church from almost from the time it was founded, right on up to the return of Jesus?

Here are a few example.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV)
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Matthew 23:34-35 (KJV)
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

John 15:20 (KJV)
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Romans 5:3 (KJV)
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Notice the last verse, tribulation produce patience. It seems like too many Christians want an easy life, a life of no problems and heart aches. Tribulations is some what like body building (I was a non competing body builder) the only way you are going to build rock hard muscle is to put those muscles under steady increasing stress of the weights. A Christians that does not experience hard ship from time to time is a weak Christians.

Doesn't really matter. A person could die 10 minutes after accepting Christ. They would still be in that church.


That's why I mentioned living an honorable life and not a specific belief system. Many people do not believe that the Bible is the correct belief system. To each his own.

So what does the Bible say will happen to a person who lives a good life without being exposed to Christianity?


Well, that is an interesting way of looking at it.

I suppose then that any person could have sacrificed himself to redeem all sinners and then be worshipped as the Son of God? Or was Christ different in some way? If so, why isn't it reasonable to believe that he would remember things that the most people would not?

The lifetime of a human being isn't even a a blink in the time span of eternity. I think it is silly that a Divine being would judge humans through all eternity for what is less than a nanosecond of that time. THAT does not make sense to ME.

In short, you have your beliefs and I have mine. I make it a point to treat the beliefs of others with respect even if I do not agree with them, and I expect the same.

Christians experience hardships but I do feel that it is easer for a Christian to get through it because they have the help of the Lord. I as a Christan feel that while God does not keep hardship away from me he leads me through it easer then someone that is not. It is like if I were trying to move a huge log alone it would seems much harder then if I had 5 other people helping me. So the hardship of moving the log is made less by Gods help which in turn make it not seem like a hardship but just a task.

Reguardless such a person would not be following that supose Church leader; he would be lead by God via the Holy Spirit. Not everyone that attends a Church believes everything what is said from the pulpit...take it from me I am one of them, and I know of others that are like that too.





Honorable in whose eyes? No one makes it into the kingdom of God because of goodness on their part. If that were so, then Jesus sacrifice was for naught. It is only by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus that one can truly be saved. The Bible says our goodness is like filthy rags to God. Of course, when one has received the Holy Spirit, which is the nature of God in them, they will desire and seek to do good. But they don’t do good to save themselves, because they are already saved; but the nature of God in them causes them to want to do good.





If it were possible for a normal human being to be born and never sinned, he could only pay with his life for one person. Only God's life is worth more that all human beings that ever lived and those to come combined.

Jesus was not an ordinary human being; He was God in the flesh. Jesus knew His past; He knew where He came from. He did not have to go through some kind of aid in order to help Him remember who He is or where He came from.



Well this is one of those beliefs that I do not subscribe to. I have studied the scriptures from cover to cover, many times and it shows that the vast majority of humanity who have died, are neither saved or lost; they are awaiting the second resurrection....their are three resurrections mentioned in the Bible. The scriptures also show that those who are alive when Jesus returns but are not saved, will be given the Holy Spirit after Jesus has set up His kingdom on the earth, in Jerusalem. Nations will volunteer themselves to go up to Jerusalem to be taught God's ways. The saints who were glorified at Jesus' second coming will rule/teach these nations. The scriptures say that the saints will be kings and priest; they will hold a political and a religious office...there will be no separation of Church and state, everything will come under the kingdom of God.

In short, you have your beliefs and I have mine. I make it a point to treat the beliefs of others with respect even if I do not agree with them, and I expect the same.[/quote]

People believe all kinds of things; but their can only be one truth. Everyone cannot be right, that's confusion. The scripture says, "God is not the author of confusion."

In my years I have found that a good amount of high regard comes easily to those who simply know how to posture themselves. It doesn't so much matter the message or the perfromance to some listening. If the strut is impressive some will follow.


Then there are those who quietly go about their business, and if some day someone chances to look back upon someone who led such a life they could well be amazed at what that quiet person accomplished. The squeaky wheel might get the grease--but it's only because most just want the annoyance to go away. I find that if I look into the quiet corners of life I learn the most.

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What I do know is this, God gives His people the strength to go through it, but it still does not mean it will be easy. Jesus (God in the flesh) just before He was to be crucified, when He was praying He was in such mental agony that His sweat was like great drops of blood, now that's not easy.

Some Christians were thrown before lions, some were sawed in two, non of these come across to me as easy.

It is one thing for us to sit where we are and believe that persecution is easy, its another thing to go through it.

In order to avoid the keep the topics properly separated, I moved this section of the thread into it's OWN thread.

By all means, please continue the discussion.

What I do know is this, God gives His people the strength to go through it, but it still does not mean it will be easy. Jesus (God in the flesh) just before He was to be crucified, when He was praying He was in such mental agony that His sweat was like great drops of blood, now that's not easy.

Some Christians were thrown before lions, some were sawed in two, non of these come across to me as easy.

It is one thing for us to sit where we are and believe that persecution is easy, its another thing to go through it.

Jesus never told us that life as a Christian would be a bed of roses, in fact He said we will have tribulations and in the age to come eternal life. This is not to say that Christians can't be joyful or be filled with peace, yes true Christians are but one should never lose sight of the fact the just as Jesus said, we are not of this world. We are pilgrims and strangers in this world, as the scripture said of Abraham and Isaac and all the righteous men of old, they had opportunity to go back from where they came from, but they looked for a City whose builder and maker was God.

We must never forget that; some of us have become so comfortable in this world that rather than be out doing our Father's business, as Jesus did, we turn our attention to politics. We seek to make this world/system our home, we say we are trying to make this world (which the Bible says that Satan is the God of) a better place, ignoring the fact that the Bible says that this world will steadily get worse to the point where it says unless those days were cut short no flesh would be saved.

It is no wonder why in the book of Revelation Jesus have to say to some, come out from among them less you share in here sins and partake of her plague.

If that is so, then it doesn't much matter which church a person goes to, whether it is Catholic, Evangelical, Word Faith, Baptist or Jehovah's Witness.




Okay.. So by your perception human good means nothing in the eyes of God.

If that is so, then those who are saved don't need to be good to others, or good at all, in order to get into heaven.

By the way, where is the filthy rags reference? I don't remember that.


Actually that was my point in responding to your opinion of reincarnation. If Christ was different, it would seem logical that his perceptions and memories would be different as well.

I'm not clear on what you are saying here...

If you don't accept Christ, then you sleep until he returns and then you are saved?


When it comes to philosopy and religion, this is not true. There can certainly be more than one truth.

That line of the Bible is certainly correct. The divine has not been the source of religious confusion; humans have. Humans have no idea what God wants and they try to guess at it. Since different people have different ideas, it creates confusion.

I never said that persecution was easy. I can not speak for those that have been persecuted. I can only base my views on what I and those close to me have been through and experienced. None of us knows for sure what was happening in those peoples minds and what they felt.