This is an old argument. People who believe predestination exclusive of other biblical factors are as those who are died in the wool Republicans or Democrats. You are not going to sway them. The best thing is to find some terms of agreement. That is sometimes difficult. For one thing many predestination folks are also faith to the exclusion of works folks. People who feel we are not predestined often emphasize works to the exclusion of faith.
The Bible says it takes both to be a Christian.

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Yes it’s an old argument, I have heard it long before my own conversion, but I'm not really interested in what people think against what the Bible says.

I believe that many on both sides of the argument fail to understand the power of the Holy Spirit. First thing what predestination shows is that a Christian's salvation is sure. The next thing is that those who are truly converted will not turn their back on God; it is not because they cannot, no, it’s because they will not. They will not because the Holy Spirit in him or her gives them the power to remain faithful.

It's the same way a Christian knows that God will always be true to His word; God is predestined to be true to His word, not because He cannot go against His word, but because He will not, it’s not His nature to do that. So once the nature of God has been imparted to them, I'm speaking of the Holy Spirit, that person will not desire to depart from God, thus predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son.

Predestined to be true to his word? His very nature preordains his truthfulness and he can and does change his mind.Man, like God, can change his mind "Free Will"....I have no problem with the fact that God has foreknowledge of the direction and choices we will make.These "choices" are not predestined,destiny is shaped both by God and Mankind and these "choices" have benefits and as Satan can personally testify to... consequences.

Predestination and Foreknowledge are not the same thing..

The doctrine that God chooses some to be saved and that the others have absolutely no opportunity for salvation is often called EXTREME PREDESTINATION. It is also referred to as CALVINISM, or the following of the teachings of what some believe John Calvin taught, and others.

"Predestination is taught in the bible, but the philosophy that God chooses who will be saved is false doctrine. The Bible teaches that saved people are predestined to GLORY, and that Christ rejecters are predestined to the LAKE of FIRE. Jesus Christ was predestined to die, etc. But never do we read of people predestined to be saved. God’s foreknowledge and sovereignty is never in question with true believers. Elect, chosen, called etc. does not necessarily refer to the saved, but more often Israel."

Predestination

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"Destiny must be shaped and not left to mere chance."..Spencer Collins

Of course God can change His mind but it still does not mean that when God makes a promis we know that He will do exacly what He says He will do. God is good not because He has to be good, He does good because its His nature to do God.

Never said or indecated that it was.

Never said that either.

Jesus did say that many are called but few are chosen. Who does the choosing, we or God?

You need to show from the scripture that God does not choose those whom will be saved. Did not Jesus said to the 12 disciples, when the rest left Him, did I not chose you and one of you have a demon? So that means that those who left and walk with Him no more were not chosen to be conformed to the image of His Son at that time....of course scriptures show that many who have died with out hople will be offered salvation at a much later time. Did not Jesus said, that no one can go to Him unless that Father which sent Him draws him? In other words it God who grants or gives the individual the ability to repent. It is all in God’s hands who repents and who does not.

And that is what I said in another post!


Answer: Both!..God offers salvation through the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ.Man must make a decision to accept the gift of faith.

Faith is a "gift" and we can accept or refuse this gift = free will.

Is it only in God's hands?

Since you argue that this decision as to who is saved has "already" been made and man can do nothing to alter this predestined fact,why the need for repentance and prostelization? Could it be that man must also desire to be saved and "repent" ? Could be indeed!

You see my brother in Christ,with God..all things are possible!

Pax Christi <>< Spence

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"Destiny must be shaped and not left to mere chance."..Spencer Collins

But as I said one cannot accept that gift if God has not given us a heart/mind to accept it. The scripture below shows that even our will to do is from God. In other words, God gives us His nature which causes us to act accordingly. Without His nature we would never desire to respond. We make the choice but, before we can do that, He has to grant us the desire to respond.


Philippians 2:13 (KJV)
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


No one has been born perfect, except Jesus, so even those whom have been predestined need to first repent. If they never repent, then it would simply mean that God has failed, and those who were predestined were not, which would make God a liar. Being predestined does not mean you are perfect. Predestined is like looking far into the future and seeing the end result; the end result does not tell us how we got there. To know how it all got started you would have to start at the beginning....just like watching a movie.

All things are possible, yes but God operate according to what He has planed from eternity. This is why He is trust worthy, this is why He deserves our praise, because even though any thing is possible for God, He will not violate what He has already uttered...if He did, then He could not be trusted to do what He said He will do.

God grant us to prosper with our faith intact. Prosperity Gospel is kind of gospel like what Rick Warren is supporting with his purpose driven life...

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“Man is an animal that makes bargains: no other animal does this - no dog exchanges bones with another.”

Paul said covetousness is idolatry (Ephesians 5:5) and forbade the Ephesians to be partakers with anyone who brought a message of immorality or covetousness (Ephesians 5:6-7).

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To be a poet or nothing.