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Religion & Philosophy Discuss Unmarried sexual relations at the General Discussion; Mixing any religion with sex is an age old quagmire.... Far too many variables to have "rules" for all.......

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Old 11-17-2018, 09:50 PM
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Default Re: Unmarried sexual relations

Mixing any religion with sex is an age old quagmire....

Far too many variables to have "rules" for all....
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Old 11-18-2018, 06:58 AM
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Default Re: Unmarried sexual relations

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Originally Posted by Dave1 View Post
Mixing any religion with sex is an age old quagmire....
Far too many variables to have "rules" for all....
It's not complicated from a Christian Perspective.

Sex is only celebrated/allowed within the marriage that has one male and one female.
From the creation it's been the case. God made Adam and Eve as husband and wife. That is the standard.

Like many "rules" for life, it's very simple.
But simple doesn't mean it's always easy.
And people being people want to try to reason out or divine exceptions, but there really are none.
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Old 11-18-2018, 08:39 AM
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Default Re: Unmarried sexual relations

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Here, I think, is an interesting question:

From a Christian standpoint--not from a contemporary societal standpoint, but from a purely Christian standpoint--is it always immoral to have sexual relations outside of marriage?

Most people, I believe, will reflexively answer "yes."

But is that actually the case?

True, Paul does condemn "fornication," as many English versions have it.

Two thoughts come to mind, however:

First, unmarried sex, in the first century--long before any reliable methods of birth control were formulated--often led to unwanted pregnancies. And the father often abandoned the mother, thereby causing serious problems.

Moreover, the word "fornication" is a translation of the Greek word porneia (from which we get pornography). It is generally defined, by the lexicons, as sexual immorality (which begs the question: What, exactly, does this include; and what does it exclude?).

And it is closely associated with "reveling" and "carousing"--what we would nowadays refer to as partying.

But it is very difficult to imagine that a couple--perhaps even a longtime couple--is "partying" when they express love in a physical manner.

Thoughts?
I'm not a Christian so you and mr wonder may discount what I have to say.

I am a firm believer that sexual relations between adults should be based upon a loving commitment to each other. That commitment may or may not include marriage but I do think an exclusive commitment should exist.
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Old 11-21-2018, 09:08 AM
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Default Re: Unmarried sexual relations

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Well PJ...

it seems we disagree. and i'm not sure you see my points, or if you're just intentionally dodging them.
I've tried to addressed your comments directly, from a christian standpoint.


But I have no problems with the words or practice of the practical or pragmatism.
Seems to me they just should be subject to the will of God. Or they can be worked in the service of ANY goal declared to be noble ... or not.
there are NO morals in "the practical" and trying to guess God's "real" intent without clear direction and instead based on sin leaning human reason is presumptuous and dangerous.

But I think your reason for faith is great. Amen. he is risen indeed.
And BASED on that it seems to me that if Jesus says something is a prohibition and does not mention the reasons for it I can reliably take it on his word that he's correct.
Rather than try to divine that the REAL practical reason for it is XYZ.

When Moses showed the captive Jews in Egypt the signs they followed him.
but only as far they considered they had "good reason". After that they complained and moan. And often were severely corrected.
After a string of miracles they get to the promise land and are told to get ready for battle to claim it.
but practically speaking they could not see HOW it could be done based on the apparent strength of the enemies.

So rather than saying God said it that settles it lets go in and take the land. They, with their reason, and personal practical assessment decided that they would not.
and were force to wander in the wilderness until they died because of their lack of faith and dependence on their own reason.

And even in the wilderness Moses's leadership was challenged by some folks who reasoned that God had no need for Moses to be the only leader. They reasoned that God could use them as well. But God had already said otherwise so tragedy hit that whole family of people that thought God would do other than what had already been stated.

more examples could be given but the point is your practical assessment of the REAL or MAIN reason why God has IN FACT made the prohibition against premarital sex and therefore exceptions YOU think are wise and "ethical" should be allowed or promoted comes across as not such a good idea.

my last thought here,
Your reason is interesting, but in scripture God talks about the marriage bed and sex NOT just as a baby making process, but also as a symbol of an intimate bound and relationship that should be UNBROKEN. And Symbol of God's inmate, enduring and singular relationship with Israel and the Church.

Your POV seems somewhat superficial and does not seem to consider any deeper meanings that God places upon sexual relations. Or any Spiritual ramifications
Seems to me that being in "the modern world" has not only given us birth control, but also a more cavalier view of sexual relationships than the scripture portrays.

all the best to you
I would just note the following:

(1) I have no reason to believe (as I have stated previously) that God bases anything on mere taboos, with nothing more to back them up.

(2) As for sex's being a symbol of "God's in[ti]mate, enduring and singular relationship with Israel and the Church," I think you are correct. Therefore, one-night-stands would not qualify. But if a boyfriend and girlfriend are longtime lovers, I certainly believe that it would.

(3) Your conclusion that modern birth control has led to "a more cavalier view of sexual relationships than the scripture portrays" is, I think, correct--in part.

Certainly, modern birth control has made it much easier to have sexual relations without fear of unwanted consequences (well, in part; there are still STDs to worry about, if one is promiscuous--although promiscuity is definitely wrong, I believe).

But since I believe that the scriptural portrayal of sexual relations is based upon practical considerations, I think that modern birth-control methods are a good thing, on balance.

As I have mentioned previously, I am not much of a fan of Christian fundamentalism--the chief reason being that it relies only upon prooftexting (which, by the way, is listed as a logical fallacy--as any list of logical fallacies will reveal), rather than considering the context involved.

But I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.

And I sincerely wish you the best also.
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Old 11-21-2018, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: Unmarried sexual relations

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
I.....
...As I have mentioned previously, I am not much of a fan of Christian fundamentalism--the chief reason being that it relies only upon prooftexting (which, by the way, is listed as a logical fallacy--as any list of logical fallacies will reveal), rather than considering the context involved.
ok... one last, last, comment here, Christian fundamentalism isn't really based "only upon prooftexting",
most, if not all of the fundamentalist i know ...and know of... not only consider " the context " of the text but also the political, social, philosophical, religious, and historical heck sometimes even the agricultural and natural context. In my experience many Fundamentalist and evangelicals tend to want to bring more to table than many people care to look at or acknowledge textually and context wise. It's not an either or it's BOTH. so frankly the type of fundamentalism you dislike is pretty much a straw-man.
... deleted...
I was about to go into some examples but I suspect it'd get long and you might not be really very interested in that conversation.
Frankly PJ seems you've got a negative caricature of fundamentalism and quoting the biblical text that allows you to be somewhat causal about what they say and what you will and won't accept as ... for lack a better word ...authoritative.



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But I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.
And I sincerely wish you the best also.
thank you and Happy thanksgiving you and for family PJ.
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