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Religion & Philosophy Discuss Court hands victory to Christian cheerleaders who want Bible verses on football game at the General Discussion; Originally Posted by AZRWinger What's inappropriate is the wholesale suppression of religious expression. It's a defacto endorsement of atheism to ...

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Old 09-10-2018, 11:15 PM
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Default Re: Court hands victory to Christian cheerleaders who want Bible verses on football g

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
What's inappropriate is the wholesale suppression of religious expression. It's a defacto endorsement of atheism to simply banish religion from the public schools.
No it's not. For one thing atheism is as much a religion as any other, and if you ban or condone any religious practice, it must apply to all.

I'm not aware of this wholesale suppression. Where I live there are more churches than grocery stores and plenty of street preachers and street groups. There are probably 10 religious channels that come with my TV package.

What's not appropriate is allowing this religion and excluding that one. That's wholesale suppression.
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Old 09-10-2018, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: Court hands victory to Christian cheerleaders who want Bible verses on football g

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Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
https://www.google.com/search?q=texa...w=1536&bih=798
Somebody tell me one more time how this is appropriate.
did the teachers make the banner? no.
Is the small town mostly Christian or christian leaning? probably.
no harm no foul.
I've seen news reports of schools and areas elsewhere in the country that are 100% Muslim. and the whole school/area accommodates the various Muslim holidays as well as Muslim practices of student IN school. Public school that is.

Context does matters.
wearing a "Dallas Cowboys" jersey at a Dallas Biker Sports bar is "free speech" wearing a "Patriots" jersey there is "disruptive".

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
That is kind of disruptive imho yes.
what class is it disrupting exactly?


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Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
I'm not sure what is the case in this instance. From what I've seen it's only Christian banners. I'm surprised other religions haven't tested the waters.

But the town is Kountze, population 2000, out in the middle of nowhere an hour + from Houston, so it may be that there is no other group in the school and no other group has tested the waters.

It also seems disruptive to me. Turning a football game into a religious revival surely is.

But there are two and only two religions in Texas. Christianity and football. Maybe combining the two into one service makes sense.
It's part of the culture.
I'm still not sure why it would be "disruptive" to anyone.
what's the offense?
OH WOW! A BIBLE VERSE!!! I can't enjoy the game now. I'm an Atheist and the Verse makes me think of God, and reminds me many of these people are Christians! I'm disturbed!! and troubled!
I'm a Muslim living in the Bible Belt and I'm SHOCKED and disturbed that I must see a verse from the Bible!!! May Mohamed ..peace be upon him... cleans my eyes. so i may enjoy this game in peace!!!
Neither we or our children should ever be exposed to personal expressions of other religions religion in public... I thought this was America?!?!
sorry I just don't see the harm.

If a Jewish Group Held up a verses from the Torah and a Monorah. somehow I think I could live with it.
If i lived in Deerborn Michigan and they had an Iman Prayer before a game. I wouldn't be Shocked OR offended. most people there are Muslims.
let them have there time and place.
I may want equal time at some point but not out of a partisan... "how dare they!" spirit.


Seems to me like a lot of things Americans talk about loving,
Religious freedom is not something many people REALLY want.
we like to talk about "religious freedom. But if goes beyond wearing a cross pin and a short whispered prayer and vague mention of God or a "higher power", it seems most people NEVER want to be exposed to religion much, of any kind, in public or in private.

Heartfelt demonstrative public expressions of religious belief is thought "disruptive" and should be muffled, squelched and controlled... by law if necessary.


But of course we still beleive in "FREEDOM of religion"
But of course .... like the right to bear arms and freedom of speech...
It's "not ABSOLUTE". we have to be practical.
that is, the freedoms should stop where i think appropriate and practical.
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:56 AM
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Default Re: Court hands victory to Christian cheerleaders who want Bible verses on football g

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Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
No it's not. For one thing atheism is as much a religion as any other, and if you ban or condone any religious practice, it must apply to all.

I'm not aware of this wholesale suppression. Where I live there are more churches than grocery stores and plenty of street preachers and street groups. There are probably 10 religious channels that come with my TV package.

What's not appropriate is allowing this religion and excluding that one. That's wholesale suppression.
If atheism is a religion like all others then the banning of religious expression is an endorsement of its credo at the expense of all others.

We are discussing Bible versus on a banner at high school football games. The attempt to ban the banners is another example of the wholesale suppression of religious expression from the public domain. Across the country we see court orders forcing removal of Christian religious symbols, some in place for decades, from public spaces. We have seen the Federal government attempt to crush a Christian charity because they will not violate their beliefs to fulfill Obamacare requirements for birth control insurance coverage. Local governments levy crushing fines on businesses who out of religious conviction refuse to participate in same sex weddings. That's a wholesale suppression of religion except atheism.
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:02 PM
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Default Re: Court hands victory to Christian cheerleaders who want Bible verses on football g

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
If atheism is a religion like all others then the banning of religious expression is an endorsement of its credo at the expense of all others.

We are discussing Bible versus on a banner at high school football games. The attempt to ban the banners is another example of the wholesale suppression of religious expression from the public domain. Across the country we see court orders forcing removal of Christian religious symbols, some in place for decades, from public spaces. We have seen the Federal government attempt to crush a Christian charity because they will not violate their beliefs to fulfill Obamacare requirements for birth control insurance coverage. Local governments levy crushing fines on businesses who out of religious conviction refuse to participate in same sex weddings. That's a wholesale suppression of religion except atheism.
We agree on a lot more than you think. I don't believe a baker should be forced to bake a cake for anyone. I don't believe any group should be required to pass out birth control. I don't believe the government should forcibly remove flags or statues because some 150 YO action might offend somebody. I believe the government should have nothing to do with planned parenthood. No pastor or preacher or JP should be forced to marry anyone if they have a problem with the marriage.

OTOH, I don't see the oppression. I see quite a few street preachers. Plenty of those light up signs stating bible verses on billboards and church lawns. Church income and real property, including the parsonage, are exempt from taxes. We've got a couple church groups near me who walk public streets and sidewalks carrying religious signs.

But. If you allow the Fun With Faith Group to hold after school meetings, insist on starting every board of supervisors meeting with a prayer from an approved pastor, or favor one group over another for any reason, you better be prepared for the backlash from the excluded group.

I don't get the hatred of atheists. Most atheists, including myself, have no interest in preventing any religion from expressing itself. We have nothing to defend. I guess I could move to Texas, demand equal time, and leave the field bare for my allotted time. Trust me, no religion has anything to fear from me. OTOH, I was suspended from elementary school for refusing to declare myself a Christian. Long story. A teacher and my mother got me reinstated. That was 70 years ago. I still have not declared myself something I'm not.

Back to the issue. I suspect the school system is taking preventative action against future problems. It would also not surprise me if this started from something as benign as a cheerleader wearing a Jesus necklace and being asked to tuck it in., and has accelerated to covering the football field with hand painted religious banners. It will surprise me less if the school is proven correct and the ACLU or something similar demands equal time.
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Old 09-12-2018, 11:33 AM
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Default Re: Court hands victory to Christian cheerleaders who want Bible verses on football g

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Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
We agree on a lot more than you think. I don't believe a baker should be forced to bake a cake for anyone. I don't believe any group should be required to pass out birth control. I don't believe the government should forcibly remove flags or statues because some 150 YO action might offend somebody. I believe the government should have nothing to do with planned parenthood. No pastor or preacher or JP should be forced to marry anyone if they have a problem with the marriage.

OTOH, I don't see the oppression. I see quite a few street preachers. Plenty of those light up signs stating bible verses on billboards and church lawns. Church income and real property, including the parsonage, are exempt from taxes. We've got a couple church groups near me who walk public streets and sidewalks carrying religious signs.

But. If you allow the Fun With Faith Group to hold after school meetings, insist on starting every board of supervisors meeting with a prayer from an approved pastor, or favor one group over another for any reason, you better be prepared for the backlash from the excluded group.

I don't get the hatred of atheists. Most atheists, including myself, have no interest in preventing any religion from expressing itself. We have nothing to defend. I guess I could move to Texas, demand equal time, and leave the field bare for my allotted time. Trust me, no religion has anything to fear from me. OTOH, I was suspended from elementary school for refusing to declare myself a Christian. Long story. A teacher and my mother got me reinstated. That was 70 years ago. I still have not declared myself something I'm not.

Back to the issue. I suspect the school system is taking preventative action against future problems. It would also not surprise me if this started from something as benign as a cheerleader wearing a Jesus necklace and being asked to tuck it in., and has accelerated to covering the football field with hand painted religious banners. It will surprise me less if the school is proven correct and the ACLU or something similar demands equal time.
You may be that unicorn of a tolerant atheist but there are many who are not and they file lawsuits that result in court ordered repression. It is commendable that you oppose many of the efforts at essentially banning Christianity from the public square but that doesn't mean those efforts have or will abate. All it takes is a disgruntled atheist or activist organization that believes they have right to freedom from religion instead of religious freedom.

It was wrong for you to have been punished 70 years ago for refusing to declare yourself a Christian. Do you really want to carry that grudge for the rest of your life? BTW, Jesus teaches us in the Lord's prayer to forgive those who trespass against us. It's a small obligation for the incredible gift of grace, unearned forgiveness of sin, on offer for Christian faith.

Yes, symbols and signs of Christianity are still to be found in public. But none of those measures of repression you wrote that you oppose are going away. If their is one thing to be learned about the Left it is that they are persistent in pursuit of their goals. In this case the school sought to proactively enforce a ban on religous expression using taxpayer dollars to fund the atheist agenda.
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Old 09-12-2018, 12:02 PM
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Default Re: Court hands victory to Christian cheerleaders who want Bible verses on football g

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
You may be that unicorn of a tolerant atheist but there are many who are not and they file lawsuits that result in court ordered repression. It is commendable that you oppose many of the efforts at essentially banning Christianity from the public square but that doesn't mean those efforts have or will abate. All it takes is a disgruntled atheist or activist organization that believes they have right to freedom from religion instead of religious freedom.

It was wrong for you to have been punished 70 years ago for refusing to declare yourself a Christian. Do you really want to carry that grudge for the rest of your life? BTW, Jesus teaches us in the Lord's prayer to forgive those who trespass against us. It's a small obligation for the incredible gift of grace, unearned forgiveness of sin, on offer for Christian faith.

Yes, symbols and signs of Christianity are still to be found in public. But none of those measures of repression you wrote that you oppose are going away. If their is one thing to be learned about the Left it is that they are persistent in pursuit of their goals. In this case the school sought to proactively enforce a ban on religous expression using taxpayer dollars to fund the atheist agenda.
I don't carry the grudge. It's over and done. Has been for decades.

I seldom mention the incident.

I seldom get into religious threads. They always go the way this one has. I got into this only to point out that if you allow any religious symbol, you better be prepared to open the whole can of worms. I've now made that point.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:29 AM
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Default Re: Court hands victory to Christian cheerleaders who want Bible verses on football g

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Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
I don't carry the grudge. It's over and done. Has been for decades.

I seldom mention the incident.

I seldom get into religious threads. They always go the way this one has. I got into this only to point out that if you allow any religious symbol, you better be prepared to open the whole can of worms. I've now made that point.
You claim not to carry a grudge but felt compelled to mention a 70 year old incident.

You raise the point that allowing religious expression in public institutions means we must allow all religions to express their faith but refuse to recognize that a policy of banning religious expression is a tacit endorsement of atheism.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:53 AM
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Default Re: Court hands victory to Christian cheerleaders who want Bible verses on football g

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
You claim not to carry a grudge but felt compelled to mention a 70 year old incident.

You raise the point that allowing religious expression in public institutions means we must allow all religions to express their faith but refuse to recognize that a policy of banning religious expression is a tacit endorsement of atheism.
I've now made that point.

I'm out.
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