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Religion & Philosophy Discuss Why are some people so submissive? at the General Discussion; It is rather irritating to me: There are actually some people--in the twenty-first century, yet!--who will allow themselves to be ...

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Old 06-20-2017, 06:26 PM
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Default Why are some people so submissive?

It is rather irritating to me: There are actually some people--in the twenty-first century, yet!--who will allow themselves to be held hostage by their respective churches, as concerning acceptable dogma.

This seems most evident in the Catholic Church (especially when the Pope speaks ex cathedra).

But it is certainly not unheard of in some Protestant churches, either--especially fundamentalist churches.

Perhaps I am especially irritated in this regard precisely because I am a freethinker (to borrow a term that has not been in frequent usage for a rather long time now).

I truly do not appreciate the efforts of any other person (or institution) to instruct me as to what I must think--or else.

In the end, I would far--far!--rather be widely considered to be a heretic than to be widely considered to be a Lockstep-type Christian.

(I don't think they still burn heretics at the stake, do they?)
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Why are some people so submissive?

yeah I read the bible if I have a question. I usually find it there.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:53 PM
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Default Re: Why are some people so submissive?

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
It is rather irritating to me: There are actually some people--in the twenty-first century, yet!--who will allow themselves to be held hostage by their respective churches, as concerning acceptable dogma.
I go to mass when I choose to, and pray my rosary when someone needs prayer.
I think some of us Catholics, the older we get the more we hold on to things of the past and do our best.
There is a comfort in feeling free to do that.

Don't care much for the current Pope.
JPll was the bomb.
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Old 06-21-2017, 07:19 AM
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Wink Re: Why are some people so submissive?

Uncle Ferd says if ya come acrost any submissive womens...

... send `em his way.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:31 AM
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Default Re: Why are some people so submissive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
It is rather irritating to me: There are actually some people--in the twenty-first century, yet!--who will allow themselves to be held hostage by their respective churches, as concerning acceptable dogma.

This seems most evident in the Catholic Church (especially when the Pope speaks ex cathedra).

But it is certainly not unheard of in some Protestant churches, either--especially fundamentalist churches.

Perhaps I am especially irritated in this regard precisely because I am a freethinker (to borrow a term that has not been in frequent usage for a rather long time now).

I truly do not appreciate the efforts of any other person (or institution) to instruct me as to what I must think--or else.

In the end, I would far--far!--rather be widely considered to be a heretic than to be widely considered to be a Lockstep-type Christian.

(I don't think they still burn heretics at the stake, do they?)
My liberal thinking conservative friend comes through with another great question.

Be careful because there are still those willing to burn you at the stake for being a heretic. LOL

While low intelligence has been linked to this because of the lessened ability of lower intelligence people to think critically I would dispute those studies. The problem isn't their lessened ability because critical thinking doesn't require a lot of intelligence. We just don't teach people how to think critically very well.

There' something I perceive as an underlying problem based upon how religions exist to begin with. The primary means of propagating a religious belief over time is that the parents impart their religious beliefs to their children long before the child has the capability to "think" for themselves. They are told to "believe" in the religion and a belief does not require any critical thinking. The authority and influence of their parent(s) is huge for the child and so they "believe" without ever really thinking about it at all.

It isn't until later, when they become mentally mature and capable of thinking for themselves, that the problem really begins. First of all they would have to question their belief, a core belief they've held since childhood, a belief that their parents held, and that can be uncomfortable for them. The religion gave them comfort and they have to step out of that comfort zone. It's not easy to question that which you have always assumed to be true.

Then they have to spend countless hours obtaining the information necessary to even address their beliefs. Once again this isn't easy to do and many never take on that challenge. Why do it if you feel good about what you're doing?

I would suggest what we see, and what you're concerned with, is based upon the laws of physics.

Quote:
Newton's first law of motion states that "An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force." Objects tend to "keep on doing what they're doing." In fact, it is the natural tendency of objects to resist changes in their state of motion. This tendency to resist changes in their state of motion is described as inertia.

Inertia: the resistance an object has to a change in its state of motion.
Once set in "religious" motion by their parents the inertia of the religion cannot be overcome unless there's an "unbalancing" force exerted upon them. Something has to trigger the questioning of the person relative to their religion where they will make the effort to understand it from their own perspective. Their tendency is to resist any change in their religious beliefs that are and have always been dogmatic because they weren't old enough to understand the religion when it became a part of their life.
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:50 AM
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Default Re: Why are some people so submissive?

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
yeah I read the bible if I have a question. I usually find it there.
You find the question in the Bible... so where's the answer to the question?

One of the problems is that if the answer is found in the Bible how do you know the answer is correct? In reality the Biblical answer would need to be collaborated by an external authoritative source. If you have an external authoritative source then why do you need the Bible?

One of the problems for all religions is that we can't assume the religious answer is the correct answer because they've often been proven to be wrong. Accepting an answer based upon dogmatic belief as opposed to investigative research can and will lead to serious mistakes.

Always remember that all religious texts, regardless of the religion, were written by men and were based upon their understanding at the time. Knowledge is not fixed in time and changes as mankind has learned more over time. What was "right" several hundred years ago (e.g. the Prophet Mohammad being married to a pre-teenage girl) is no longer right in todays society. Think about Shakespeare's play Romeo and Juliet. In the play we learn that Juliet is only 13 years old while Romeo is older (but we don't know how old). That was acceptable at that time. It would not be acceptable today.

Dogmatic beliefs don't reveal the truth because the belief cannot be supported by the person accepting the belief based upon dogma.
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Old 06-21-2017, 09:31 AM
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Default Re: Why are some people so submissive?

I've been a member of a few churches.. one "fundamentalist" no less. and know a few Catholics and have been acquainted with many.

I've yet to meet many ...if ANY... church members that agree 100% and submit 100% to all the churches or the bibles or preachers, or Popes even Jesus's "dogmas" or commands.

I've met people that are LOYAL to "the church" or pastor or pope INSPITE OF what they say or do.
I've met people who are completely wedded to ONE or 2 or 3 doctrinal positions or views or their Church or denomination.
but few that consistent .. much less blindly consistent... to turn on dime at the word of the leadership.

I've met far more people in churches that don't really KNOW what their faith really teaches and they believe various things not even part of their stated faiths yet they still call themselves "Christian" or "Baptist" or "Catholic" or "Muslim" or "Mormon".
Heck many village atheist don't much about the details or implications of what they believe.

I've found that Jehovah Witnesses tend to be very clear on what they believe. and do in fact tow a STRICT line with their leadership's teachings.

But others ... mmm not so much.
just look at the comments here.
Pjohns i'm not so sure WHO you have in mind.
maybe we're not running in your same circles.

You mention the Pope speaking Ex cathedra. Do you know Catholics that recently changed their minds on issues because they discovered the Pope said they should?
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Old 06-21-2017, 09:39 AM
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Default Re: Why are some people so submissive?

I have to say that i have seen 2nd hand one church turn into somewhat of a cult. the church began well but the charismatic pastor and family slowly began to transform and loyalty to them became the emphasis.

It's weird, not all the people there are of "low intelligence" not even close.
It's the social/emotional ties that seem to overwhelm the rational aspects.
of "free thinking"
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Old 06-21-2017, 09:50 AM
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Default Re: Why are some people so submissive?

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Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
I have to say that i have seen 2nd hand one church turn into somewhat of a cult. the church began well but the charismatic pastor and family slowly began to transform and loyalty to them became the emphasis.

It's weird, not all the people there are of "low intelligence" not even close.
It's the social/emotional ties that seem to overwhelm the rational aspects.
of "free thinking"
That very thing happened with one of my sisters.
It's a very small church called Christian Union.
That pastor could do no wrong, and she turned her back on just about everyone else in the family because she said we weren't saved.
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:03 AM
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Default Re: Why are some people so submissive?

as far as "free thinking" is concerned,
that's GREAT.
the question comes in though how much free thinking is allowed, what's a person's self-imposed boundaries of what's allowable to consider REAL or VALID.
and How much of it will play into how a person tries to justify they own or their freind's/famly's/group's actions.


one issue people consider is Abortion.
if one is an athesit they often reject outright even the option of a supernatural source of life much less a supernatural OPINION on the issue of any kind.
so what REASONs are they to apply to question AFTER they've Apriori decide they do not have freedom to think about GOD?

they can only go to their personal feelings and some version of pragmatism.
morals for most of them are considered subjective and socially constructed and changeable so the killing of the unborn becomes a simple Choice.
not a moral question.
for the atheist there are no UNIVERSAL morals, just the assuption that most people have some moral FEELING that are worked out by whatever views are dominant in the various cultures.

For those that SAY they are Christain they can "free think" like the Atheist above. and assume various pragmatic concerns, check their own feelings personally and empathically, and not really be concerned about what God may or may not have said or implied.
Christians are FREE to think what they want and IGNORE what their "holy books" or "Church leaders" say the God they "follow" thinks. And make their own judgments.
And MANY do exactly that.

Often justifying their stance by claiming God agrees with them based on their personal application of "LOVE" they've FREELY thought of. While they studiously ignore clear commands and words from Jesus, the apostles, the prophets and Mary that would indicate otherwise.


there are plenty of gray areas for Christian people to HONESTLY take different views on, BASED on the not so clear areas of Bible teaching and history and theology and science. But there are some areas of CLEAR demarcation that, it seems to me, that people should just be honest and say stuff like...
"Hey, I know God says we should not have sex outside of marriage BUT I THINK..."
I have a no problem with honesty.
But it does bother me when everyone wants to stretch Christianity to fit/cover whatever they believe... whatever they "free think".
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Job 14:6-8

Last edited by mr wonder; 06-21-2017 at 10:14 AM..
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