Political Wrinkles  

Go Back   Political Wrinkles > General Discussion > Religion & Philosophy
Register FAQDonate PW Store PW Trivia Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Religion & Philosophy Discuss Why are some people so submissive? at the General Discussion; Originally Posted by ShivaTD ... The "womb" does not belong to the fetus and the fetus cannot establish any claim ...

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2017, 08:50 PM
mr wonder's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Virginia
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,471
Thanks: 9,453
Thanked 5,728 Times in 3,859 Posts
Default Re: Why are some people so submissive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
...
The "womb" does not belong to the fetus and the fetus cannot establish any claim to it. Where do people come up with such nonsense. In nature there's only one thing that any member of any species actually owns and that is their own body. No one has any right to their body but them. The fetus owns it's own body and no one else's body.
Thinks how stupid the claim is that the fetus owns the womb. That's advocacy for human bondage so let's make it simple. The basic criteria for the natural Rights of the Person (regardless of when personhood is established):
The Natural Right(s) of a person are inherent in the person, not dependent upon another person, do not conflict with or violate the Rights of another person, nor do they impose an involuntary obligation upon another person.
The Fetus cannot have a Right to Life that is dependent upon the Woman nor can the Fetus impose the obligation upon the Woman to provide a "home in the womb" without the woman's voluntary consent and the Fetus can't even occupy the Woman's body without her consent because that infringes upon the Right of Self of the Woman.
The raising of a child in the United States is always based upon the voluntary consent of the adult (parent or guardian) to provide for the needs of the child as provided for under the law. If you took a two year old from their parents and put it out on the street you'd be committing an act of kidnapping, abandonment, and child endangerment and if the child died you'd be responsible for the child's death.
I'm not sure what the life support example is about because a machine doesn't have any rights to be violated but the woman does.
It's interesting though because the example is about removing someone from a life support system when they only need it for a few more days but doctors aren't prophets and they'd have no way of knowing the patient only needs it for a few more days. If they're on life support they could die in 5 minutes regardless of the life support system. We do have to question how the person was placed on life support to begin with. Did someone voluntarily put the person on life support?
The woman didn't voluntarily put the fetus on life support in her body (i.e. a planned pregnancy). If she did then she wouldn't want the abortion.
No, I establish the criteria for aggression.
As noted the criteria I used was actually "surgical delivery" of the fetus as opposed to an abortion. Surgical deliveries, such as a cesarean section delivery, are done all of the time and they're never considered to be an act of aggression. ...
I'll reply to the rest another time.

but it seems clear to me that your non-aggression principle is a bit contradictory in several respects.

The 'no obligation' concept seems to leave off any ideas or compassion since SELF is the final focus. And still leaves those Social Darwinist Atheist that want to survive, and kill off others to do so, with no compelling motive not to since they are not trying to cannibalize those they consider WORTHY or 'real humans'. In their minds they are SAVING the species, making a "super race". Just as you seem to have no problem stealling land from people you've decided are "spoiling it" and who happen to have concepts of liberty and property that you believe are false So you're are willing to displace them... for the greater good.
Those Social Darwinist that think they are BEST of the species may not agree with your concept and ask you prove your worth as a human and that your not a drain on the planet or the societies "limited" resources. Culling the human herd makes PERFECT sense to them. It is SAVING the species. It's as compelling a concept to them as the non-aggression idea is to you. But Many of them are very willing to use aggression to serve their ends.

As far as abortion is concerned
I never said a child OWNS the womb. I said it's their HOME.

But here again with your more robust definitions of your non-aggression principle it becomes a bit self-contradictory in the case of abortion/surgical removal and letting DIE....ABORTION.

you say that each person has rights to their body.
you say no one is obligated morally or otherwise to HELP anyone else.
you say that the child wasn't "planned"

this is where part of your logic starts to break down.
Every act of sexual intercourse IMPLIES the option of Creating a child.
male female Sex "BY NATURE" is trying to make child. The biology of it is BUILT to creat children. It's only been in the past 75 years that anything close to reliable "birth control" has had any effect. In Sex NATURE biologically by default is doing everything in it's power to make offspring. The pleasure itself is primed to climax for the male AS he deposits seed.
So if you say NATURE is to be our guide then the idea of "birth control" or sex MAINLY for pleasure is ANTI-NATURE. At least 6000 years of human history and every biological text book shows that.

So at this point the couples should be ENLIGHTED to the fact of NATURE that humanist rely on SCREAMS that the woman's body WANTS to make a child. And her and her partner's efforts to stop NATURE at just pleasure have failed.

At this point i have to ask are there only RIGHTS from a moral humanist perspective? are there any "responsibilities" dictated BY NATURE as well?

BUT even if there are ZERO responsibilities recognized by the moral humanist
the question still arises DID the CHILD ASK to be conceived?
EACH a person has rights. the Conceived CHILD seems to have ZERO here.

NO say in when or IF to be conceived, no say when they are REMOVED from the womb they never ASKED to put in in the 1st place.
But It'd seems right to me BY NATURE the parents should be held responsible for their actions to this new person.

The actions that conceived a new person WITHOUT the child's consent.

In most accidents, if a person is at fault in harming another that person has the responsibility to fix or help those whose lives they've altered.
Maybe moral Humanist don't believe in responsibility here.
Animals in nature don't often help those they've harmed either.
And there are cases of animals in nature discarding their own young as well.
Though it's not typical and frankly seems unnatural.
__________________
Hope is the dream of the waking man.
Aristotle

For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:6-8
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to mr wonder For This Useful Post:
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2017, 02:29 AM
Intern
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 70
Thanks: 11
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Default Re: Why are some people so submissive?

Think out of the box. You don't have to worship another human being at all.

The basic message of God's divine religion is the worship of God alone and the avoidance of worship directed to any person, place or thing other than God. Since everything other than God, the Creator of all things, is God's creation; it may be said that the true religion in essence calls man away from the worship of creation and invites him to worship only its Creator.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jesus is muslim For This Useful Post:
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2017, 06:46 AM
mr wonder's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Virginia
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,471
Thanks: 9,453
Thanked 5,728 Times in 3,859 Posts
Default Re: Why are some people so submissive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus is muslim View Post
Think out of the box. You don't have to worship another human being at all.

The basic message of God's divine religion is the worship of God alone and the avoidance of worship directed to any person, place or thing other than God. Since everything other than God, the Creator of all things, is God's creation; it may be said that the true religion in essence calls man away from the worship of creation and invites him to worship only its Creator.
I'd urge you to consider that you need to think out of the box.
That God is more than a one-dimensional being.
that God as person paradoxically manifest as 3 in one.
that God CAN be at the same time the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.
I suggest you look up the Hebrew word "ECHAD" as a start.

the Koran says that Jesus was a great Prophet, Jesus said that "He and the Father Are ONE". And "any that have seen me has seen the Father". And that "...before Abraham was I am". the Jews of the day understood exactly what he meant and took up stones to kill him.

in Islam and Christianity, we both understand that a TRUE prophet always tells the truth.
the Koran says that Jesus Did not die but
Jesus prophesied that he would die... for the sins of his and all people.
So either the Koran is mistaken or Jesus is.
Since those that made the Koran were not there, but the apostles were. I suspect that the Korean is mistaken.
All 4 gospels and the testimony of others inside and outside of scriptures all confirm that Jesus died. Peter tried to rebuke Jesus for his prophecy of his death. But Jesus said that that kind of talk was from Satan.

On more than one occasion after performing miracles among pagan peoples several of the apostles were worshiped but they immediately Stopped them from doing so saying "we are just men like you." In the book of acts and revelations angels appear to believers, on 2 of those occasions those believers began to worship the angels. But the angels STOPPED them immediately and said they should ONLY worship God.
But when Jesus rose from the dead the apostles worshiped him, Jesus NEVER stopped them. Many other times the same happened as Jesus appeared in body and in visions.
When the disciple Thomas finally saw Jesus after the resurrection he bowed and said to Jesus, "My Lord and my GOD."
Jesus did not rebuke him He said instead.
“Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

You seem a sincere person.
please consider thinking outside of the box.
Ask God to show you the truth.
__________________
Hope is the dream of the waking man.
Aristotle

For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:6-8

Last edited by mr wonder; 06-23-2017 at 06:58 AM..
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to mr wonder For This Useful Post:
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2017, 09:14 AM
Manitou's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Texas
Gender: Male
Posts: 18,626
Thanks: 233
Thanked 5,605 Times in 4,066 Posts
Default Re: Why are some people so submissive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus is muslim View Post
Think out of the box. You don't have to worship another human being at all.

The basic message of God's divine religion is the worship of God alone and the avoidance of worship directed to any person, place or thing other than God. Since everything other than God, the Creator of all things, is God's creation; it may be said that the true religion in essence calls man away from the worship of creation and invites him to worship only its Creator.
Except to worship God means to help and protect the helpless, show mercy to your fellow human, treat people with kindness, feed the hungry, clothe the poor, et cetera. To worship God does not mean to kiss his ass, or kill someone who dares to insult God or his "prophet" or his "book".
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2017, 01:21 PM
Manitou's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Texas
Gender: Male
Posts: 18,626
Thanks: 233
Thanked 5,605 Times in 4,066 Posts
Default Re: Why are some people so submissive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Is moral to require the wife subservient to the husband? Should the wife submit to the husband in everything?
Humans are not to be subservient one to another, male to female, female to male, commoner to "king", especially. Subservience is a state made up by controlling types. Let's not bring children into this either. Their job is to learn to be independent and self-sustaining, and they get that by obeying their parents, or what person or persons are taking care of them, unless, of course, that person is not the caring type.

Morals are simply rules by which a person lives. I consider myself subject to nothing and to nobody.
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2017, 02:04 PM
saltwn's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Esto perpetua
Posts: 76,543
Thanks: 54,092
Thanked 25,714 Times in 18,309 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to saltwn
Default Re: Why are some people so submissive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus is muslim View Post
Think out of the box. You don't have to worship another human being at all.

The basic message of God's divine religion is the worship of God alone and the avoidance of worship directed to any person, place or thing other than God. Since everything other than God, the Creator of all things, is God's creation; it may be said that the true religion in essence calls man away from the worship of creation and invites him to worship only its Creator.
__________________


Presidentís campaign chairman is waiting to find out if heís going to prison. Architect of bin Laden raid is daring president to take his clearances. Reality show contestant/WH employee has tape of $180K offer she got to stay quiet. Years of chaos in one day.
Greg Miller
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
are, people, some, submissive, why

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0