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Old 02-20-2017, 03:06 PM
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Default Where do morals come from?


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Old 02-20-2017, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: Where do morals come from?

A person is Good with God, and evil with the devil, since they both exist in each person. Some call it personality.
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Old 02-20-2017, 04:56 PM
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Post Re: Where do morals come from?

The belief that evolutionary advantage has to provide an individual advantage don't understand the concept of evolution.

Collaborative / cooperation provides a benefit to the species. Being able to achieve, as a group, those things we could not achieve as individuals alone.
Morality provides a framework which helps facilitate group progress.
Within populations of social animals, altruism, or acts of behavior that are disadvantageous to one individual while benefiting other group members has evolved. This notion seems to be contradictory to evolutionary thought, due to the fact that an organism's fitness and success is defined by its ability to pass genes on to the next generation. According to E. Fehr, in the article, The Nature of Human Altruism, the evolution of altruism can be accounted for when kin selection and inclusive fitness are taken into account; meaning reproductive success is not just dependent on the number of offspring an individual produces, but also the number of offspring that related individuals produce.[19] Outside of familial relationships altruism is also seen, but in a different manner typically defined by the prisoner's dilemma, theorized by John Nash. The prisoner's dilemma serves to define cooperation and defecting with and against individuals driven by incentive, or in Nash's proposed case, years in jail. In evolutionary terms, the best strategy to use for the prisoner's dilemma is tit-for-tat. In the tit-for-tat strategy, an individual should cooperate as long others are cooperating, and not defect until another individual defects against them. At their core, complex social interactions are driven by the need to distinguish sincere cooperation and defection.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality


One thing that the religious proponents frequently avoid acknowledging is how morality evolves regardless of religion.
Judeo-Christian can push forth historic teachings which explain how their morality was gifted from their god.
But does it explain how OTHER religions also evolve a lot of the same moral standards? After all, if the Judeo-Christian god gave their followers his rules, then how do they explain the same rules coming into other religions (from the other religions' gods)?
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Old 02-20-2017, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: Where do morals come from?

"It is impossible to distinguish evil from good unless one has an infinite reference point which is absolutely good." ~ Ron Rhodes


"The standard that measures two things is something different from either. You are, in fact, comparing them both with some Real Morality, admitting that there is such a thing as a real Right, independent of what people think, and that some people's ideas get nearer to that real Right than others." ~ C.S. Lewis
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Old 02-20-2017, 06:12 PM
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Post Re: Where do morals come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
"It is impossible to distinguish evil from good unless one has an infinite reference point which is absolutely good." ~ Ron Rhodes
Do atheists have such an "infinite reference point"?
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Old 02-20-2017, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: Where do morals come from?

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Do atheists have such an "infinite reference point"?
You do, in that you've been influenced by culture which does. Therefore even the atheist's morality is under the influence of the concept of absolutes. (or rather 'agnostic', in your case.)
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Old 02-20-2017, 06:22 PM
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Post Re: Where do morals come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
You do, in that you've been influenced by culture which does.
Really?
You actually think culture provides an "infinite reference point" on morality?
Then why does is there so much conflict on such issues like abortion, gay rights, refugees, etc, etc...

And that doesn't even address the concept of whether that "infinite" reference point can change or not. (As culture changes its morality.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Therefore even the atheist's morality is under the influence of the concept of absolutes. (or rather 'agnostic', in your case.)
Absolutes...
Cultural morality changes. That's a fact.
Yet you actually think you can throw out a claim regarding "absolute"?
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Old 02-20-2017, 06:43 PM
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Default Re: Where do morals come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Really?
You actually think culture provides an "infinite reference point" on morality?
No, be careful not to misrepresent posts beyond what is said.
You said "have", not "provides." It HAS such a reference point; I didn't say it provides one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Cultural morality changes.
That's a fact.
On some things. On other things, no. Or at least very little.
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Old 02-20-2017, 06:52 PM
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Default Re: Where do morals come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
No, be careful not to misrepresent posts beyond what is said.
The cultural influence provides the CONCEPT and BELIEF of absolute morality.
You are backtracking and refusing to accept the logical flow of the claim and the statements.

Original quote: "It is impossible to distinguish evil from good unless one has an infinite reference point which is absolutely good." ~ Ron Rhodes

I asked you if atheists have an infinite reference point.
You said yes and claimed it's the culture which does.
And now you want to backtrack and claim culture has the concept of absolute morality.

But that's not what the quote claimed. It didn't say there was a BELIEF, but rather that "an infinite reference point" has to exist, otherwise it was "impossible to distinguish evil from good".
If you now change your claim from HAVING such an infinite reference point to just the BELIEF EXISTING, you've totally backtracked on your earlier claim.


Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66
Absolutes...
Cultural morality changes. That's a fact.
Yet you actually think you can throw out a claim regarding "absolute"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
On some things. On other things, no. Or at least very little.

If it changes, then it's not an absolute.

You're being dodgy with the effect of reducing your quote to a meaningless state.

So on the issues where cultural morality changes, does that mean there is no moral absolute?
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Old 02-20-2017, 07:06 PM
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Default Re: Where do morals come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
I asked you if atheists have an infinite reference point. You said yes and claimed it's the culture which does.

LOL, Ok, so if it makes you feel better to have a semantics victory here, we'll say athiests OPERATE on the basis of an infinite reference point (due to culture) (even if unknowningly)

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
But that's not what the quote claimed. It didn't say there was a BELIEF, but rather that "an infinite reference point" has to exist ...
The point I made was that CULTURE has held to an infinite reference point, and as a result, the athiest's morality is been influenced thusly, even though he or she may not even realize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
If it changes, then it's not an absolute.
Says who???
Morality changes in the Bible even, between the Testaments, the very book you like to find examples of things to hold against Christians. No one here has said un-changeability is what defines 'absolute'.
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