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Religion & Philosophy Discuss Why Did God Create Atheists? at the General Discussion; Originally Posted by Joe Shoe Dude ... are you drunk tonight??? Serious question. Originally Posted by Joe Shoe I JUST ...

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  #161 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2017, 11:32 PM
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Post Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

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Dude ... are you drunk tonight??? Serious question.



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I JUST GAVE YOU CHURCH FATHER quotes, and you ask if the church associated with 'these people' ...!! They were Church Fathers!!! Ask yourself if churches associated with them ...
You're engaging in pointless circular logic. Trying to justify your own claims by making other claims. Refusing to admit the underlying assumption ...

So, what church is associated with those two people?
What are the name(s) of their church(es)?
How many other church fathers were involved in these churches?

"Church father" does NOT mean that everything they thought was espoused as official church doctrine.
Let me quote you something from Origen's web-page
Many writers today consider Origen and Origenism to have been anathematized by the Catholic Church and an equal number deny this.[75]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origen

Also:
...Origen Adamantius and Tertullian are often considered Church Fathers but are not saints owing to their views later being deemed heretical[2]...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Fathers
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  #162 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2017, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

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So, what church is associated with those two people? What are the name(s) of their church(es)?
The Catholic Church.


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How many other church fathers were involved in these churches?
Since it's the Catholic Church, pretty much all of them.

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Also:
...Origen Adamantius and Tertullian are often considered Church Fathers but are not saints owing to their views later being deemed heretical[2]...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Fathers
No one said anything about them being a saint.
No one has brought up Tertullian or Adamantius here AT ALL, other than you.
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  #163 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2017, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

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The Catholic Church.
So, was it the Catholic Church's position, in the 3rd century, that the Genesis story was ALLEGORICAL?
The truthful answer is no.
So just ADMIT that this guy had his own theory that the Catholic Church didn't embrace in his day...


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Since it's the Catholic Church, pretty much all of them.
Did all those other Church Fathers also believe the creation story from Genesis was an allegory?


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No one said anything about them being a saint.
No one has brought up Tertullian or Adamantius here AT ALL, other than you.
Wow.
You can lead a horse to a creek but you can't make him think.

The point had nothing to do with sainthood.
It had to do with whether or not Origen's opinions on the creation story as an allegory were really adopted by the church of his time.
The important part was the bolded part, which you predictably dishonestly ignored.
THEIR VIEWS WERE DEEMED HERITICAL. So knock off this stupid pretense that Origen being a church father automatically means his church embraced his belief on the creation story being allegorical ...
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  #164 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2017, 08:01 PM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

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So, was it the Catholic Church's position, in the 3rd century, that the Genesis story was ALLEGORICAL?
The truthful answer is no.
So just ADMIT that this guy had his own theory that the Catholic Church didn't embrace in his day...
The funny thing is how you portray this as pretty much an all-or-nothing scenario. On one hand I've not argued that even MOST people in the 3rd century held to an allegorical interpretation. But you HAVE asserted pretty much all Christianity ONLY read it literally. The reality is, it's rarely ever that simple. You can no more prove that a literal interpretation was the only thing going than the other way around.

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Did all those other Church Fathers also believe the creation story from Genesis was an allegory?
The point is that SOME did. That alone refutes your assertions.

More importantly, where you went most wrong is in your take (by referring to the analogy earlier) by basically asserting it was "intended to be taken literally". You just can't speak to the intentions of writer(s) of Genesis, given it was written thousands of years ago.
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  #165 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2017, 08:11 PM
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Post Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

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The funny thing is how you portray this as pretty much an all-or-nothing scenario.
Funny thing is you actually think that's what happened...
You pointed out this guy as believing it to be allegorical.
I asked about his church's actual position.
THAT is what actually happened.

Whether it's white vs off-white is actually pretty irrelevant to the point I made. Which was about the overall picture...
But you're trying to pretend that the distinction between off-white and white is important. And you're ignoring the overall picture...


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On one hand I've not argued that even MOST people in the 3rd century held to an allegorical interpretation.
There you go again talking about what you "haven't argued" like it's a meaningful contributor to the situation...
Of course you haven't argued that cause you can't argue what's obviously a lie.


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But you HAVE asserted pretty much all Christianity ONLY read it literally.
Cause, facts and stuff...


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The reality is, it's rarely ever that simple. You can no more prove that a literal interpretation was the only thing going than the other way around.
"only thing going"?
Obviously this guy and the other guy saw it as an allegory.
And the church saw their teachings (in general) as heretical.

You're now trying to devolve this into a gray area because you have no facts to repudiate anything...


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The point is that SOME did. That alone refutes your assertions.
"some" being two.
And it does not refute my "assertions". It changes one part of the overall picture in a way that's meaningless to disprove the overall point.

Christians, by and large for many millenia, have held an understanding that the Genesis creation story was factual.
When it was told, it was portrayed as factual.
Judeo-Christian followers for millenia held it as factual.
Joe has managed to insert the fact that there have been some INCREDIBLY RARE INDIVIDUALS who saw it as an allegory long after the bible was written.

That doesn't change the overall picture.
Aesop's fables FROM THE BEGINNING were held to be fairy tales. Allegories.
Not so with the Bible.

Joe has devolved this into a meaningless minutia point which is really insignificant to the overall picture. Two people. Which brings the percentage to what value in all that millenia of time of believers thinking it was factual?!?!
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  #166 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2017, 09:08 PM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

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Whether it's white vs off-white is actually pretty irrelevant to the point I made. Which was about the overall picture...

But you're trying to pretend that the distinction between off-white and white is important. And you're ignoring the overall picture...
But you're the one portraying black-and-white junk.

And you have no "overall picture" ... just anything to try to pretend Christians couldn't have thought non-literally over the centuries. Whatever it takes to fit your prejudiced view of them as anything-but-intellectual in any approach to scripture.

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Of course you haven't argued that cause you can't argue what's obviously a lie.
Then you have no business arguing against crap that wasn't even argued. THAT is the point.

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Cause, facts and stuff...
Of which you've given none.

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... this guy and the other guy saw it as an allegory.

... you have no facts to repudiate anything...

..."some" being two.

... INCREDIBLY RARE INDIVIDUALS who saw it as an allegory

... held to be fairy tales ...Not so with the Bible.

... Two people
Maxine Clarke Beach comments Paul's assertion in Galatians 4:21-31 that the Genesis story of Abraham's sons is an allegory, writing that "This allegorical interpretation has been one of the biblical texts used in the long history ...

Other New Testament writers took a similar approach to the Jewish Bible. The Gospel of Matthew reinterprets a number of passages. Where the prophet Hosea has God say of Israel, "Out of Egypt I called my son," (Hosea 11:1), Matthew interprets the phrase as a reference to Jesus. Likewise, Isaiah's promise of a child as a sign to King Ahaz (Isaiah 7:14) is understood by Matthew to refer to Jesus.

Later Christians followed their example. Irenaeus of Lyons, in his work Against Heresies from the middle of the 2nd century, saw the story of Adam, Eve and the serpent pointing to the death of Jesus [allegorically]

"Early Christians seem to have been divided [note, NOT ALL one way, other than a handful ] over whether to interpret the days of creation in Genesis 1 as literal days, or to understand them allegorically."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allego...ons_of_Genesis
As everyone can see, quite simply, your over-simplification and prejudicial view that allegorical interpretation of Gen. 1 is practically non-existent other than a tiny handful is simply laughable, and the product of someone's prejudiced imagination (yours) who cannot imagine religious people acting in any other way but literal lockstep.
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  #167 (permalink)  
Old 02-26-2017, 03:51 PM
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Post Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

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But you're the one portraying black-and-white junk.
Why do you cover up one lie on my opinion with another.
It is my opinion. Not yours.
I don't see it as "black-and-white". I see it as a sliding scale.

And YOU are still the one trying to make it a deal (by continuing to whine about it). But you LIE about it and pretend it's me...


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And you have no "overall picture" ... just anything to try to pretend Christians couldn't have thought non-literally over the centuries. Whatever it takes to fit your prejudiced view of them as anything-but-intellectual in any approach to scripture.
More trying to lie about the situation.
I've already given the overall picture.
What you're trying to do is change a couple of the pixels and then pretend the picture isn't still a dog.

The truth is the vast majority of Christians DID NOT "think non-literally".
Whether RARE INDIVIDUAL Christians did is not really relevant. ESPECIALLY when their thoughts were treated as heretical at the time.


[quote=Joe Shoe;874656]Then you have no business arguing against crap that wasn't even argued. THAT is the point.
Dear gawd you are funny.
I am not arguing against Origen's beliefs. You've shown me what he believes. I've accepted what HE as an individual, believed.

What I'm arguing is HE WAS ESSENTIALLY ALONE in that time-period.
And that's the truth.
What point I made is YOU CANNOT ARGUE AGAINST that truth. So saying you're not arguing against it is a stupid comment.


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Of which you've given none.
It's funny how you talk about what you're NOT arguing against, but then you want to pretend I need to give facts.
At this stage, you're floundering. Tossing out vague claims that you cannot even try to substantiate.


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Originally Posted by Joe Shoe View Post
Maxine Clarke Beach comments Paul's assertion in Galatians 4:21-31 that the Genesis story of Abraham's sons is an allegory, writing that "This allegorical interpretation has been one of the biblical texts used in the long history ...

Other New Testament writers took a similar approach to the Jewish Bible. The Gospel of Matthew reinterprets a number of passages. Where the prophet Hosea has God say of Israel, "Out of Egypt I called my son," (Hosea 11:1), Matthew interprets the phrase as a reference to Jesus. Likewise, Isaiah's promise of a child as a sign to King Ahaz (Isaiah 7:14) is understood by Matthew to refer to Jesus.

Later Christians followed their example. Irenaeus of Lyons, in his work Against Heresies from the middle of the 2nd century, saw the story of Adam, Eve and the serpent pointing to the death of Jesus [allegorically]

"Early Christians seem to have been divided [note, NOT ALL one way, other than a handful ] over whether to interpret the days of creation in Genesis 1 as literal days, or to understand them allegorically."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allego...ons_of_Genesis
As everyone can see, quite simply, your over-simplification and prejudicial view that allegorical interpretation of Gen. 1 is practically non-existent other than a tiny handful is simply laughable, and the product of someone's prejudiced imagination (yours) who cannot imagine religious people acting in any other way but literal lockstep.
You're floundering. You're desperate to try to change the subject.
We're talking about Genesis creation story and now you're obviously trying to throw anything you can into the mix that is NOT about the Genesis creation story...


In this last post of yours, you haven't said ONE THING of merit regarding what I actually am talking about on the actual topic.
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  #168 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2017, 11:23 AM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

God didn't create Atheists, Chuck Norris did!
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  #169 (permalink)  
Old 02-28-2017, 03:44 PM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

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God didn't create Atheists, Chuck Norris did!
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