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Old 02-16-2017, 11:30 PM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

And I'm always a bit confuse when non religious people start grouping religious people. it often seems that they always draw the lines where it best suits their purpose.

If they are talking about "preachers" they use pedophile priest and rich mega church pastors as representative of ALL preachers.

But here ANYONE that claims to be "religious" is counted as being duly influenced by "religion" not even Christianity specifically to be lumped into the 80% of americans.

I think most honest atheist would acknowledge that there a LOT of people who say they "believe in God" but live, talk, act and generally believe like the average atheist. Including having a very low view of many parts... if not most of... the Bible. Some that just go to church and nod assent without really being invested or serious at all.
And there are many people that would call themselves religious, or alternatively "spiritual", that would outright reject many things in the Bible. and embrace most ideas of popular culture with an added mishmash of pieces of other religions to suit their taste.
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 02-16-2017, 11:30 PM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

But here's the thing about the original post about the "purpose" of atheist and the reply in the quote.

the reply's not that far off the mark biblically speaking, except the scriptures overall seems to basically say something that is hard to get across to many non christians. (sometimes chrsitians as well)

And the problem shows itself in this kind of discussion.

Basically the Bible teaches.
EVERYONE is a selfish SOB ...at Heart... even AFTER they become christians.
But even BEFORE anyone comes to God, EVERYONE has a GOD Given Conscience. Which gives us some real sense of right and wrong. Christians because we've volunteered to be more aligned with God's thinking and his heart SHOULD want to and are spiritually compelled internally to do more. And love more and some do but it's not always Automatic or consistent. And some areas ...for different people... take a LOT of reeducation and work in humility. Some won't get it at all until God takes them home.

Bottom Line Everyone religious or not has a conscience and should be helping others. WE ALL KNOW this Internally. Christians should be better at it. SO are some aren't some are on the way, some were but then fell backwards.
you have to take in various parts of scriptures to get that view but the Apostle Paul touches on part of it in Romans 2:11-16


..For God does not show favoritism.
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ,
(you have to read the whole BOOK of Roman to get the full context.. don't take this passage as a 'good deeds outweighing bad deeds' gets you in teaching. He's very clear that Jesus Christ must save all from their sins "there are NONE righteous, no not one". His point here is that Just knowing the law and being a jew is not enough.)
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For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:6-8

Last edited by mr. wonder; 02-16-2017 at 11:43 PM..
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old 02-17-2017, 01:46 AM
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Post Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

I find it amusing how I started this thread to repudiate some of religion who were mindlessly attacking atheists based on absurdly ignorant stereotypes...
... and others want to talk about Christians being attacked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
And I'm always a bit confuse when non religious people start grouping religious people. it often seems that they always draw the lines where it best suits their purpose.
Yeah.
And Christians would never do anything like that...



Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
If they are talking about "preachers" they use pedophile priest and rich mega church pastors as representative of ALL preachers.
And who has done that in this thread?
Or are you doing exactly what you are trying to accuse others of?
Trying to group non-religious people by drawing lines that best suit your purpose?



Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
But here ANYONE that claims to be "religious" is counted as being duly influenced by "religion" not even Christianity specifically to be lumped into the 80% of americans.
HuH?!?!?
Who has said that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
I think most honest atheist would acknowledge that there a LOT of people who say they "believe in God" but live, talk, act and generally believe like the average atheist. Including having a very low view of many parts... if not most of... the Bible. Some that just go to church and nod assent without really being invested or serious at all.
What's funny about this is that, for the religious, both ends of the political spectrum can make that assessment about the other side of the political spectrum...


The reality is that Christians typically don't believe in ALL of the bible.
I haven't met one yet who won't make excuses for why certain aspects don't apply.
Two verses for example:
1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
1 Peter 2:18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder
"...religion itself..."... OK which includes...
local charities, relief and food programs, church homeless shelters, unwed mother assistance, elder care, children teen camps and programs, prison ministries, religious drug secession programs, job training and college prep programs, giving space for AA and other orgs to meet, the salvation army which is a religious denomination, Church based hospitals and clinics, religious International relief, aid and educational organizations of all stripes.
so yeah
religion itself

My point was to repudiate the statement I quoted. The claim that atheists "... atheists rarely do any acts of charity..."
That has been repudiated.

A bigger question for those who can't comprehend atheists having morality is this...
If atheists don't have morality, why do they donate to charities in such large numbers?
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old 02-17-2017, 05:23 AM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
I find it amusing how I started this thread to repudiate some of religion who were mindlessly attacking atheists based on absurdly ignorant stereotypes...
... and others want to talk about Christians being attacked.


Yeah.
And Christians would never do anything like that...




And who has done that in this thread?
Or are you doing exactly what you are trying to accuse others of?
Trying to group non-religious people by drawing lines that best suit your purpose?




HuH?!?!?
Who has said that?



What's funny about this is that, for the religious, both ends of the political spectrum can make that assessment about the other side of the political spectrum...


The reality is that Christians typically don't believe in ALL of the bible.
I haven't met one yet who won't make excuses for why certain aspects don't apply.
Two verses for example:
1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
1 Peter 2:18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.




My point was to repudiate the statement I quoted. The claim that atheists "... atheists rarely do any acts of charity..."
That has been repudiated.

A bigger question for those who can't comprehend atheists having morality is this...
If atheists don't have morality, why do they donate to charities in such large numbers?


Well foundit 66 if you wanted it that simple why did not just quote another point mr,wonder made..
Quote:
EVERYONE has a GOD Given Conscience.
Before and even after they come to God. And if they had it before then it is there if they decide to not follow the Lord of Hosts.

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Old 02-17-2017, 06:15 AM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlurp View Post
Well foundit 66 if you wanted it that simple why did not just quote another point mr,wonder made..
Before and even after they come to God. And if they had it before then it is there if they decide to not follow the Lord of Hosts.

Do you think Buddha is a god? It might be odd to you it might be odd to you but people do not worship him as a God like people worship Jesus Christ.

And now a musical interlude

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Damn shame it couldn't have been a father / son event. IMHO.
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:34 AM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

Why do men create gods? Now there is the real question
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:05 AM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
I find it amusing how I started this thread to repudiate some of religion who were mindlessly attacking atheists based on absurdly ignorant stereotypes...
... and others want to talk about Christians being attacked.
I'm glad you've regained some consciousness of the idea of a GENERAL purpose and leaning of a thread/post rather than nitpicking. that's good.
I ...as Mlurp has pointed out ... agree with your general point.... and have said so pretty clearly. But, i also didn't want to let equally "absurdly ignorant stereotypes" of Christians to stand as legit counter points.


Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Yeah.
And Christians would never do anything like that...
Some have, It's not a good practice.
I try very hard to say "SOME" Atheist. Or mention specific atheist by name or group. Or very often I point out where certain lines of atheistic based ideas naturally lead.
Not my intent to generically smear atheist or muslims or any group or ism.
But ideas do have consequences when put into action, whether or not "everyone" in any group follows through with or are even AWARE OF the natural conclusions of their world views.


Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
HuH?!?!?
Who has said that?
you did, you quoted it in post #99
"80% of Americans are religiously affiliated.... In other words, the religious people who are giving say they’re giving because of religion. And they’re overwhelmingly giving to religion as well."
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 02-17-2017, 08:09 AM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
But here's the thing about the original post about the "purpose" of atheist and the reply in the quote.

the reply's not that far off the mark biblically speaking, except the scriptures overall seems to basically say something that is hard to get across to many non christians. (sometimes chrsitians as well)

And the problem shows itself in this kind of discussion.

Basically the Bible teaches.
EVERYONE is a selfish SOB ...at Heart... even AFTER they become christians.
But even BEFORE anyone comes to God, EVERYONE has a GOD Given Conscience. Which gives us some real sense of right and wrong. Christians because we've volunteered to be more aligned with God's thinking and his heart SHOULD want to and are spiritually compelled internally to do more. And love more and some do but it's not always Automatic or consistent. And some areas ...for different people... take a LOT of reeducation and work in humility. Some won't get it at all until God takes them home.

Bottom Line Everyone religious or not has a conscience and should be helping others. WE ALL KNOW this Internally. Christians should be better at it. SO are some aren't some are on the way, some were but then fell backwards.
you have to take in various parts of scriptures to get that view but the Apostle Paul touches on part of it in Romans 2:11-16


..For God does not show favoritism.
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ,
(you have to read the whole BOOK of Roman to get the full context.. don't take this passage as a 'good deeds outweighing bad deeds' gets you in teaching. He's very clear that Jesus Christ must save all from their sins "there are NONE righteous, no not one". His point here is that Just knowing the law and being a jew is not enough.)
Several people on here, with all due respect, have laid their religious beliefs over the statements made by non-religious posters.

God gave atheists free will? If they don't believe or question God's existence , then God isn't likely the one who gave them free will.

'EVERYONE has a GOD Given Conscience.' Once again, if they don't believe or question God's existence, then that conscience is not related to God.

Do you follow this?

People develop a conscience regardless of religion, by being taught, and experiencing right from wrong. Understanding that they don't like when something is done to them, so they learn that others most likely don't like it either, and the opposite when in comes to good things. Those that don't learn these things, are your local friendly sociopaths.

While being strong in your personal beliefs is fine with me, it is rather interesting to see happen what I posted above.
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:33 AM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder
I think most honest atheist would acknowledge that there a LOT of people who say they "believe in God" but live, talk, act and generally believe like the average atheist. Including having a very low view of many parts... if not most of... the Bible. Some that just go to church and nod assent without really being invested or serious at all.
What's funny about this is that, for the religious, both ends of the political spectrum can make that assessment about the other side of the political spectrum...
I'm not sure "the political spectrum" is that relevant

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
The reality is that Christians typically don't believe in ALL of the bible.
I haven't met one yet who won't make excuses for why certain aspects don't apply.
Two verses for example:
1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
1 Peter 2:18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
Sigh.. mmm...rrrr... that's not the best way to put it.
But if someone wants to view it in the narrowest of terms and affix their own reading to bible verse they've read at random... and pulled out of context... well I guess that might accurately apply.

I think a poor but fairly apt analogy would be to say, Imagine A family that all have THE Family recipe for chocolate birthday cake. The recipe is very specific and all the aunt's cousins and in-laws have it. But at one house they may not use quite as much salt... based on their honest understanding of the recipe. At another house they may not use the half teaspoon teaspoon of nutmeg... because they think nutmeg is canceled out by another part of the recipe. At another they don't put on the cherries on top, why, well because they don't want to offend those that can't buy cherries, and the "spirit" of the recipe and cake is to make people happy.

However at some of the family's homes they don't use Eggs, or Flour because they think they know better because of modern research. Another of the the family's home uses no Chocolate but Cinnamon instead because everyone around them uses that and don't like chocolate. But they all still want to claim it's IS the REAL family recipe.

Well Ok some outside the family might claim that NONE of the above REALLY BELIEVE the recipe. But it seems to me that would be an overstatement, and wouldn't really reflex the nuance of whats going on.
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Job 14:6-8

Last edited by mr. wonder; 02-17-2017 at 08:39 AM..
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:11 AM
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Default Re: Why Did God Create Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Several people on here, with all due respect, have laid their religious beliefs over the statements made by non-religious posters.
ok
Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
God gave atheists free will? If they don't believe or question God's existence , then God isn't likely the one who gave them free will.
'EVERYONE has a GOD Given Conscience.' Once again, if they don't believe or question God's existence, then that conscience is not related to God.
Do you follow this?
If God is real then it doesn't matter if atheist believes they got their free will or Conscience from God or not. the fact is they did.
If a Rich Trust fund kid doesn't believe he got his money from his parents but somehow believes it's from his own hard work or luck, that doesn't erase the true source of the wealth.
much less the existence of the parents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
People develop a conscience regardless of religion, by being taught, and experiencing right from wrong. Understanding that they don't like when something is done to them, so they learn that others most likely don't like it either, and the opposite when in comes to good things. Those that don't learn these things, are your local friendly sociopaths.
There have been several studies that show that humans have a real sense of conscience even before we can speak as children. And even before those, If you go around the world to all cultures you'll find a hardwired concept of "fairness""justice" "morals" in everyone of them. The lines are often drawn at different places but you never really come across a truly amoral culture, religious or not.

like Speech is a mysteriously hardwire aspect of Humans so is a moral nature or conscience.
Cultures and religions do mold it just like various languages are expressions of various regions, but the RAW moral sense is in fact built in.

As far as sociopaths and psychopaths are concerned, well yes sadly. they are out their. But they can be seen as modern and specific descriptions for what the bible calls sinful, wicked and evil people. We see several of examples of those kind of people in the Bible. the scripture also mention's people whose conscience who have been "seared with a hot iron". And people's who's mind and conscience's have been corrupted.

But as i mentioned in a previous everyone has a conscience but we all fall FAR short of the love and compassion we are able (and were INITIALLY created) to express. We all as a human race are not operating at our highest capacity morally speaking. We are all operating with corrupted equipment. Some people's are just more corrupted than others. But we all can step up our game naturally and God helps us take it to another level.
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Hope is the dream of the waking man.
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For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:6-8

Last edited by mr. wonder; 02-17-2017 at 09:17 AM..
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