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Polls Discuss Impeachment at the General Forum; Originally Posted by treedancer Why is it lying when two US law enforcement officials told a news organization(BuzzFeed News) that ...

View Poll Results: Most Likely Articles of Impeachment
Obstruction of Justice (Russia Investigation) 4 66.67%
Abuse of Power (Russia Investigation) 2 33.33%
Witness Tampering (Russia Investigation) 2 33.33%
Campaign Finance Fraud (Hush Money Payments) 3 50.00%
Money Laundering (Hush Money Payments) 2 33.33%
Tax Fraud (Hush Money Payments) 2 33.33%
Emoluments Violation (Via Trump Properties) 4 66.67%
Embezzlement (Trump Foundation) 0 0%
Failiure To Faithfully Execute the Law (numerous cases) 1 16.67%
Wildcard (Pick your own and specify what it is) 4 66.67%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 6. This poll is closed

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  #121 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:02 AM
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Default Re: Impeachment

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Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
Why is it lying when two US law enforcement officials told a news organization(BuzzFeed News) that Michael Cohen, tRumpís personal lawyer/fixer at that time, discussed the idea with representative Dmitri, Peskov, pUtin's press secretary?
Your accusation was that Trump would be forced to resign over Mueller digging in to Putin's condo allegations. As I pointed out there is no evidence Trump knew anything about the discussions of the idea. Even if we temporarily suspend disbelief to enter the Resistance hall of mirrors the discussion of giving Putin a condo an idea never acted upon as part of a Trump tower Moscow project that never came to fruition isn't grounds for impeachment for anyone but the true believer in Resistance at all costs.

Buzzfeed is the same outfit that published the fake news Steele dossier with no proof after Obama's CIA director included it in briefings presented to President Obama and President elect Trump. Thanks to Steele's campaign of influence other news organizations were aware of the dossier but refused to publish it due to lack of verification but Buzzfeed seized upon the briefings as a pretext to publish the entire dossier. The Buzzfeed editor said it's up to readers to decide if it's credible. My what a true journalist. But hey, a couple of anonymous sources cited by a disreputable publication and you are all in proclaiming it will drive Trump to resign.
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  #122 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:39 PM
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Default Re: Impeachment

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Your accusation was that Trump would be forced to resign over Mueller digging in to Putin's condo allegations. As I pointed out there is no evidence Trump knew anything about the discussions of the idea. Even if we temporarily suspend disbelief to enter the Resistance hall of mirrors the discussion of giving Putin a condo an idea never acted upon as part of a Trump tower Moscow project that never came to fruition isn't grounds for impeachment for anyone but the true believer in Resistance at all costs.

Buzzfeed is the same outfit that published the fake news Steele dossier with no proof after Obama's CIA director included it in briefings presented to President Obama and President elect Trump. Thanks to Steele's campaign of influence other news organizations were aware of the dossier but refused to publish it due to lack of verification but Buzzfeed seized upon the briefings as a pretext to publish the entire dossier. The Buzzfeed editor said it's up to readers to decide if it's credible. My what a true journalist. But hey, a couple of anonymous sources cited by a disreputable publication and you are all in proclaiming it will drive Trump to resign.
Yer post is laughable, calling Buzzfeed fake news while you cited Rick Moran of muckrack.com/American Stinker in post #40 as yer source.
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  #123 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:05 PM
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Default Re: Impeachment

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Originally Posted by Constant_Slothrop View Post
The one piece of information we still need to close the loop on the conspiracy/misprision crimes is specifically what Trump knew and when. We have pretty clear evidence that numerous Trump advisers were aware of Russian criminal activity committed on Trump's behalf, and you would have to be incredibly gullible to believe that they kept Trump in the dark about it. The bottom line is that if Trump knew, he clearly lied about it and that meets the definition of misprision of a felony.
Again, show me actual evidence Trump violated this law.

I know, it's easy peazy to make accusations, but when you're asked to put the proverbial money where your moth is, it's easy to fall short; just like you're doin' here.

Show. Us. Proof. Trump. Committed. This. Crime.

No sense movin' on to the next statute until ya can prove this one.
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  #124 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:28 PM
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Default Re: Impeachment

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Yer post is laughable, calling Buzzfeed fake news while you cited Rick Moran of muckrack.com/American Stinker in post #40 as yer source.
Caught in a lie, you try to change the subject. No attempt to challenge either the lack of proof for the Putin's condo conspiracy or the smear merchants at Buzzfeed.
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:34 PM
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Default Re: Impeachment

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Caught in a lie, you try to change the subject. No attempt to challenge either the lack of proof for the Putin's condo conspiracy or the smear merchants at Buzzfeed.
We'll see who is a liar when tRump does his PERP walk outta the oval office.
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2018, 01:37 AM
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Default Re: Impeachment

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Originally Posted by Dog Man View Post
That's not true. I heard he was donating his organs to science.
yeah only if he's been pre-paid for them.
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2018, 06:42 AM
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Default Re: Impeachment

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Originally Posted by treedancer View Post
We'll see who is a liar when tRump does his PERP walk outta the oval office.
Again you avoid admitting your lie. That's three posts where you try to change the subject rather than admit your deception.

Auditioning for a taxpayer subsidized job at NPR?

https://thefederalist.com/2018/11/30...ate-testimony/
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  #128 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2018, 08:55 AM
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Default Re: Impeachment

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Your accusation was that Trump would be forced to resign over Mueller digging in to Putin's condo allegations. As I pointed out there is no evidence Trump knew anything about the discussions of the idea. Even if we temporarily suspend disbelief to enter the Resistance hall of mirrors the discussion of giving Putin a condo an idea never acted upon as part of a Trump tower Moscow project that never came to fruition isn't grounds for impeachment for anyone but the true believer in Resistance at all costs.
I would agree 100% that Trump would never resign over the "Putin Condo" issue. According to court testimony the discussion was between Cohen and Sater that were working together for Donald Trump on the Trump Moscow project.

Did Trump know about it is sort of irrelevant IMO because there's no doubt in my mind that if the deal required providing the condo to Putin, in violation of the law, that Trump would have approved it. The fact that Trump has complete distain for the law is what's important to me personally. Trump has admitted previously that he paid illegal bribes to organized crime figures in the United States related to his casinos projects. Why wouldn't Trump violate US law and bribe Putin that heads organized crime in Russia?

So it isn't whether Trump knew about the possible proposal that Sater and Cohen may have discussed with Putin's representatives but whether Trump would have done it and anyone that knows anything about Donald Trump knows that he would have made the "illegal" bribe in a heart beat if it made building Trump Moscow possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Buzzfeed is the same outfit that published the fake news Steele dossier with no proof after Obama's CIA director included it in briefings presented to President Obama and President elect Trump. Thanks to Steele's campaign of influence other news organizations were aware of the dossier but refused to publish it due to lack of verification but Buzzfeed seized upon the briefings as a pretext to publish the entire dossier. The Buzzfeed editor said it's up to readers to decide if it's credible. My what a true journalist. But hey, a couple of anonymous sources cited by a disreputable publication and you are all in proclaiming it will drive Trump to resign.
I have to laugh a little at this. Yes, it is true that Buzzfeed did publish the Steele memos to the FBI (Steele dossier) when other publication would not. In the "real news" business there needs to typically be two or more sources confirming a story prior to publications. The other legitimate news sources didn't have other information at the time to collaborate Steele's intelligence reporting. Buzzfeed decided to take a chance but did publish it with the bold disclaimer that it was "unverified intelligence" and not "evidence" of wrongdoing.

The funny part about all of this is that Steele's "unverified intelligence" has, over time, become factual evidence. As an example let's take the most salacious part of Steele's memos (dossier), the meeting with prostitutes at the Ritz-Carlton in 2013.
.
James Comey's notes indicate that when Trump was confronted with this part of the Steele dossier he claimed, "It couldn't have happened because I didn't spend the night in Moscow in 2013." A pretty flat denial that it ever happened but since then the facts have come out.

Trump did spend the night in Moscow in 2013 just like Steele stated. Steele proven right.

Trump did stay in the President suite of the Ritz-Carlton where the Obama's had stayed earlier just like Steele stated. Steele proven right.

Trump was offered prostitutes from the Russian hosts according to his body guard and Trump was alone in his room for more than enough time to engage in the sexual acts that Steele described. Not proof that Trump had the prostitutes in his room but he had access to "free" prostitutes that night from his Russian hosts. Steele not proven completely right but he was proven at least half-right because the opportunity was staring Trump in the face that night.

Finally Steele claimed that Russian intelligence had recorded that night with Trump and the prostitutes at the Ritz-Carlton and Vladimir Putin was asked about it in Helsinki. Putin did not deny the existence of the recordings but instead side-stepped it by saying that he wasn't personally aware of Trump being in Moscow that night. Putin wasn't aware of it but Russian intelligence was and Russian intelligence routinely spies on and records what goes on in the guest rooms in the Ritz-Carlton.

Steele is also a professional former spy and he had his sources for this information. He had two employees working at the Ritz-Carlton that both made these statements. They knew each other so there is a minor issue of credibility because it's not two independent sources but Steele also had two sources inside of the Russian government, one closely tied to the Kremlin and the other closely tied to Russia intelligence that both expressing knowledge of the event and the existence of a tape being held by Russian intelligence.

The only things we don't have to prove beyond any doubt that Trump meet with prostitutes and committed the acts described in Steele's intelligence reporting to the FBI are the actual prostitutes involved and a copy of the tape that Russian intelligence is believed to possess.

Not everything in Steele's "dossier" has been proven by independent collaboration, and Steele has stated that he only believes it's about 80% accurate, but so far everything that could be verified by independent collaboration has been true and nothing of significance in the Steele "dossier" has been disproven.

It's illogical to claim that something is fake when you don't have any evidence of anything in it being false.

What the whole Trump Moscow project reveals is that the Russians did have information they could blackmail Trump with and that's what Christopher Steele was warning the FBI about.
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  #129 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2018, 09:06 AM
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Default Re: Impeachment

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Originally Posted by Hairy Jello View Post
Again, show me actual evidence Trump violated this law.

I know, it's easy peazy to make accusations, but when you're asked to put the proverbial money where your moth is, it's easy to fall short; just like you're doin' here.

Show. Us. Proof. Trump. Committed. This. Crime.

No sense movin' on to the next statute until ya can prove this one.
Three Points:

1. Impeachment isn't a criminal proceeding and there are no rules of evidence like those that would be imposed by a criminal court.

2. During impeachment proceedings there isn't a "presumption of innocence" because it's not a criminal prosecution where the person's life, liberty, or property is at risk.

3. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't apply to impeachment proceedings
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  #130 (permalink)  
Old 12-07-2018, 09:14 AM
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Default Re: Impeachment

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Caught in a lie, you try to change the subject. No attempt to challenge either the lack of proof for the Putin's condo conspiracy or the smear merchants at Buzzfeed.
I believe that both Cohen and Sater have admitted to discussing the offering of an illegal bribe (condo at the Trump Moscow) to close the deal on the project.

Cohen and Sater were definitely involved in a conspiracy to violate the law and as the direct representatives of Donald Trump that would include Trump in that conspiracy. It was still ultimately a criminal conspiracy with the Russians even if the Russians hadn't receive the proposal because for the conspiracy actions to occur the Russians had to be involved.
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