Political Wrinkles  

Go Back   Political Wrinkles > General Forum > Polls
Register FAQDonate PW Store PW Trivia Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Polls Discuss Constitutional Amendment? at the General Forum; Originally Posted by jamesrage Couldn't the state legislators be bought into what senators to appoint? They were. The 17th stopped ...

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 06-19-2018, 12:12 PM
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,160
Thanks: 8,674
Thanked 7,128 Times in 4,306 Posts
Default Re: Constitutional Amendment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
Couldn't the state legislators be bought into what senators to appoint?
They were. The 17th stopped that and produced two separate entities elected by the same people and often at odds with each other.

The state was left with no representation.

Either we need to restore the state picking their representatives or do away with the Senate altogether. No need for two groups of lawmakers voting on the same issue.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 06-20-2018, 03:41 AM
jamesrage's Avatar
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: A place where common sense still exist.
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,013
Thanks: 950
Thanked 1,152 Times in 729 Posts
Default Re: Constitutional Amendment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
They were. The 17th stopped that and produced two separate entities elected by the same people and often at odds with each other.
Government is not supposed to run very efficient.The are supposed to be at odds with each other.Its why we have a president, House, Senate and the supreme court. Each part is basically a safeguard against the other. What the problem is are professional or career politicians who become out of touch with the people and have set up rules to **** the new congress and senators.What is needed are term limits and waiting periods between each elected and appointed office. So that there are not career politicians and since everyone is a new guy they can't **** over the new guy.

Quote:
The state was left with no representation.
We the people are the state and do have representation by both the senate and congress.
__________________
"There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag… We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language… and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”—Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to jamesrage For This Useful Post:
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 06-20-2018, 03:48 AM
jamesrage's Avatar
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: A place where common sense still exist.
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,013
Thanks: 950
Thanked 1,152 Times in 729 Posts
Default Re: Constitutional Amendment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Yes they could. However that is not the point. The point is that the States have lost their representation at the Federal level with Senators subservient to voters instead of the states. That results in a more powerful central gov't (Federal) by the states ceding that power.
Seeing how we the voters are the state I am not sure how your statement is true.


Quote:
If the US Senators are beholden to the State legislature and can be recalled at any time, they are more likely to vote in favor of what benefits their state as opposed to buying votes by voting to spend more Federal money.
That would occur anyways. The problem is the fact there is no term limits and waiting periods between elected and appointed offices. The other problems are die hard party-tards who will vote for their party no matter what and most of the voters who pay little to no attention to politics that keep these corrupt clowns in office.
__________________
"There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag… We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language… and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”—Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 06-20-2018, 05:47 AM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,333
Thanks: 1,450
Thanked 2,230 Times in 1,769 Posts
Default Re: Constitutional Amendment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bat View Post
It takes congressional approval plus 2/3 of all states to ratify a constitutional amendment.

A better hypothetical would be to ask one to make a proposed constitutional amendment and see if said proposal can get approval by 2/3 of the members of this message board.

Sorry for being a fly in the ointment, but that is just the way I roll sometimes.
Correction to the above.

Ratification of a Constitutional Amendment requires 3/4ths of the states to approve a proposed Amendment.

It requires 2/3rds of the states to propose a Constitutional Amendment based upon a convention of the states that by-passes Congress. The authors of the Constitution did not want the Congress to be the only means for creating a Constitutional Amendment but the ratification in either case is 3/4ths of the states.

https://constitution.findlaw.com/article5.html
__________________
"I always had a rule, if a restaurant is dirty on the outside, it's dirty on the inside." Donald Trump

"I always had a rule, if the White House is dirty on the inside, it's dirty on the outside." ShivaTD

Based upon the corruption, brutality, inhumanity, immorality, dishonesty, and incompetence of the Trump administration the White House is the dirtiest house in America and there's no known cleanser that with remove the stains of the Trump Administration.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ShivaTD For This Useful Post:
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 06-20-2018, 06:11 AM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,333
Thanks: 1,450
Thanked 2,230 Times in 1,769 Posts
Default Re: Constitutional Amendment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
All political hopefuls campaign on public dime $125,000,000; radio, internet and tv are required to give equal time/money for ads and pay for them themselves. Campaigns can only last 6 mos.

reason. take money out of politics and make candidates beholden to the people.
While well intended it doesn't work or solve the problem for two reasons.


In 2016, in addition to Donald Trump (R) and Hillary Clinton (D) there were 16 other third party candidates plus two independent candidates. Government funding for all 20 candidates would cost $2.5 billion. Do we provide funding for all of the candidates or will there be favoritism for some that will be funded while others will be denied funding? With $125 million up for grabs there would probably be a rush to create new political parties just for the money and to be completely non-biased politically you'd have to fund them all.

While addressing political party funding it doesn't eliminate "soft money" from being spent to effect the campaign and most of today's money is soft money. The First Amendment's protection of freedom of speech, especially political freedom of speech, cannot be infringed upon. Even if you tried nothing stops the billionaire from purchasing a media source and using it as a political tool to promote their political candidate. How do you stop Fox News, for example, from it's propaganda role for the Republican Party? On the flip side how do you require the news media to cover third party candidates giving them equality in the election?

This thread is really quite challenging for anyone taking it seriously like you have in your proposal (a proposal that has merit in principle but would fail pragmatically IMHO) and I'm trying to compose my proposal that is along the same lines in that it addresses getting the influence of money out of presidential politics.
__________________
"I always had a rule, if a restaurant is dirty on the outside, it's dirty on the inside." Donald Trump

"I always had a rule, if the White House is dirty on the inside, it's dirty on the outside." ShivaTD

Based upon the corruption, brutality, inhumanity, immorality, dishonesty, and incompetence of the Trump administration the White House is the dirtiest house in America and there's no known cleanser that with remove the stains of the Trump Administration.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ShivaTD For This Useful Post:
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-20-2018, 07:45 AM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,333
Thanks: 1,450
Thanked 2,230 Times in 1,769 Posts
Default Re: Constitutional Amendment?

Not previously composing this before, but with a general idea in mind, I'm going to give it a shot but please judge me on intent more so than on nitpicking of the actual verbiage.

Repeal and Replacement of the Twelfth Amendment (Election of the President).

To be repealed: https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment12.html

New Amendment Text:

Each state shall elect by the vote the people a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, or an office holder in a political party within the last years, shall be appointed an Elector. No person may hold the position of Elector in two consecutive elections. The position of Elector will be a non-partisan position.

Candidates for each Elector position shall be selected by the State with each member of the State Legislature selecting one person from their district and the Governor selection anyone in the State being placed on the ballot. The Electors shall be elected by Vote of the People based upon the highest number of votes until all positions are filled. If any elector is unable to fulfill their responsibilities they will be replaced by the appointment of the Governor.

Any person eligible under the Constitution to be President can submit an application to their State Electors for consideration. The State Electors shall nominate two qualified candidates for President with one from their State and one from any other state. Candidates nominated by the State Electors will be submitted to the Electoral College least 100 days before the end of the current President's term in office. Upon completion of the list of qualified candidate then the entire Electoral College shall begin it's deliberation process that can include interviewing the nominees. Additionally a timely process of voting to reduce the number of candidates, advancing half of those candidates receiving the most votes and eliminating half of the candidates with the least votes. When the voting process provides one candidate with a majority of the Electoral College votes that person shall be elected President and the one receiving the second most votes shall become Vice President.

It shall be unlawful for any person or entity to attempt to directly influence the decision and selection process of the Electoral College or of the individual Electors.


My intent, if not clear, is to create the Electoral Collage at least in principle as it was intended to exist in Federal Paper #68 written by Alexander Hamilton.
The Federalist #68

The purpose of the Electoral College is to select the most qualified person in the nation (meeting the other criteria for president) to be our Chief Executive Officer. The Electors, being non-partisan and not subject to political party influence, would ideally be selected from the most knowledgeable and respected of private citizens that could include respected political commentators like George Will to a well respected history teacher at a local college or perhaps a community leader.
The Federalist #68

By analogy this mirrors to some degree how a corporation selects it's corporate officers. The board of directors, individuals that are knowledgeable about the roles and responsibilities of corporate offices and the challenges for the corporation, select the people to fill those roles. The hourly workers don't have that knowledge and are not the best people to pick the CEO of the corporation.

The average American voter like you and I doesn't typically have that knowledge which is why we ended up with such a horrible choice for president in the last election. Picking the "Least Horrible" of two horrible candidates still leaves you with a horrible president.
__________________
"I always had a rule, if a restaurant is dirty on the outside, it's dirty on the inside." Donald Trump

"I always had a rule, if the White House is dirty on the inside, it's dirty on the outside." ShivaTD

Based upon the corruption, brutality, inhumanity, immorality, dishonesty, and incompetence of the Trump administration the White House is the dirtiest house in America and there's no known cleanser that with remove the stains of the Trump Administration.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06-20-2018, 12:13 PM
Conservative Sage
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 16,156
Thanks: 9,156
Thanked 9,748 Times in 5,949 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to AZRWinger
Default Re: Constitutional Amendment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Not previously composing this before, but with a general idea in mind, I'm going to give it a shot but please judge me on intent more so than on nitpicking of the actual verbiage.

Repeal and Replacement of the Twelfth Amendment (Election of the President).

To be repealed: https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment12.html

New Amendment Text:

Each state shall elect by the vote the people a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, or an office holder in a political party within the last years, shall be appointed an Elector. No person may hold the position of Elector in two consecutive elections. The position of Elector will be a non-partisan position.

Candidates for each Elector position shall be selected by the State with each member of the State Legislature selecting one person from their district and the Governor selection anyone in the State being placed on the ballot. The Electors shall be elected by Vote of the People based upon the highest number of votes until all positions are filled. If any elector is unable to fulfill their responsibilities they will be replaced by the appointment of the Governor.

Any person eligible under the Constitution to be President can submit an application to their State Electors for consideration. The State Electors shall nominate two qualified candidates for President with one from their State and one from any other state. Candidates nominated by the State Electors will be submitted to the Electoral College least 100 days before the end of the current President's term in office. Upon completion of the list of qualified candidate then the entire Electoral College shall begin it's deliberation process that can include interviewing the nominees. Additionally a timely process of voting to reduce the number of candidates, advancing half of those candidates receiving the most votes and eliminating half of the candidates with the least votes. When the voting process provides one candidate with a majority of the Electoral College votes that person shall be elected President and the one receiving the second most votes shall become Vice President.

It shall be unlawful for any person or entity to attempt to directly influence the decision and selection process of the Electoral College or of the individual Electors.


My intent, if not clear, is to create the Electoral Collage at least in principle as it was intended to exist in Federal Paper #68 written by Alexander Hamilton.
The Federalist #68

The purpose of the Electoral College is to select the most qualified person in the nation (meeting the other criteria for president) to be our Chief Executive Officer. The Electors, being non-partisan and not subject to political party influence, would ideally be selected from the most knowledgeable and respected of private citizens that could include respected political commentators like George Will to a well respected history teacher at a local college or perhaps a community leader.
The Federalist #68

By analogy this mirrors to some degree how a corporation selects it's corporate officers. The board of directors, individuals that are knowledgeable about the roles and responsibilities of corporate offices and the challenges for the corporation, select the people to fill those roles. The hourly workers don't have that knowledge and are not the best people to pick the CEO of the corporation.

The average American voter like you and I doesn't typically have that knowledge which is why we ended up with such a horrible choice for president in the last election. Picking the "Least Horrible" of two horrible candidates still leaves you with a horrible president.
There are no nonpartisan actors to become electors especially if they are expected to be knowledgeable about the issues. The proposed requirement to nominate someone from the state violates the freedom of interstate commerce. As with Congressional districts candidates will move state to state.

Because of displeasure over Trump the proposal would create an incestuous politbureau to select a President. Who can afford to take months out their schedule to select the President except activists on the payroll of the rich and the rich themselves. Some way to involve ordinary folks.

The Constitution originally specified the person with the second most electoral votes became VP. This turned out to be a very bad idea. Imagine Hillary as VP to Trump.
__________________
The Democrat's strategy for the Trump Presidency is the same one used by Stalin's secret police chief "show me the man and I will show you the crime."
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to AZRWinger For This Useful Post:
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 06-20-2018, 12:37 PM
Conservative Sage
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 16,156
Thanks: 9,156
Thanked 9,748 Times in 5,949 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to AZRWinger
Default Re: Constitutional Amendment?

A balanced budget amendment like all but a few states have for their government would be the single most beneficial change to the Constitution. Instead of mortgaging our children's future to buy votes today the Federal government would have to abide by the same sound fiscal policy as middle class families.

It makes sense to bar the same government that controls the debt from the ability to use it without restraint. It would make sense to have an override requiring a super majority in the event of national crisis, declared war for example.

A balanced budget amendment would go a long way towards restoring fiscal sanity to the Federal government. Something would have to be cut to finance new expensive programs or expand old ones. It would almost certainly lead to the abolition of so-called nondiscretionary spending, programs with first call on revenues but without review.
__________________
The Democrat's strategy for the Trump Presidency is the same one used by Stalin's secret police chief "show me the man and I will show you the crime."
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to AZRWinger For This Useful Post:
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 06-20-2018, 12:41 PM
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Tennessee
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,228
Thanks: 9,724
Thanked 3,726 Times in 2,440 Posts
Default Re: Constitutional Amendment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The average American voter like you and I doesn't typically have that knowledge which is why we ended up with such a horrible choice for president in the last election. Picking the "Least Horrible" of two horrible candidates still leaves you with a horrible president.
This is surely an elitist prescription: The average person is...well, just clueless; so we must leave it to the "experts" to decide our political fortunes...
__________________
"In his second inaugural address, [Franklin D.] Roosevelt sought 'unimagined power' to enforce the 'proper subordination' of private power to public power. He got it…"—George Will, July 8, 2007
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to pjohns For This Useful Post:
Reply

Tags
amendment, constitutional

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0