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Old 08-29-2017, 12:42 PM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Question 7 (lets vary the only the Subject to see if it makes a difference).
Do you yourself feel it is acceptable or unacceptable to hold Pedophile or sexual lust towards children views? Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?

Do you yourself feel it is acceptable or unacceptable to hold views advocating the annihilation and or subjugation of all white people? Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?

Sooo
Well... I find Pedophilia and sexual lust towards children views atrocious.
I find other people holding Pedophilia and sexual lust towards children views acceptable.

Well... I find advocating for the annihilation and or subjugation of all white people views atrocious.
I find other people advocating the annihilation and or subjugation of all white people acceptable.

I'm sorry but I don't see how it's "acceptable", in any general sense.
and AUTOMATICALLY reading into the question constitutional protections of "free speech" IS NOT implicit.

YES, People have a RIGHT to THINK all kind of HELLISH thoughts, and say/promote all kinds of purely evil things but it's not "acceptable" by most people standards.

NAZISM and white supremacy with all their clearly implicit and incarnate HORRORS are not "acceptable".
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:01 PM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
Question 7 (lets vary the only the Subject to see if it makes a difference).
Do you yourself feel it is acceptable or unacceptable to hold Pedophile or sexual lust towards children views? Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?

Do you yourself feel it is acceptable or unacceptable to hold views advocating the annihilation and or subjugation of all white people? Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?

Sooo
Well... I find Pedophilia and sexual lust towards children views atrocious.
I find other people holding Pedophilia and sexual lust towards children views acceptable.

Well... I find advocating for the annihilation and or subjugation of all white people views atrocious.
I find other people advocating the annihilation and or subjugation of all white people acceptable.

I'm sorry but I don't see how it's "acceptable", in any general sense.
and AUTOMATICALLY reading into the question constitutional protections of "free speech" IS NOT implicit.

YES, People have a RIGHT to THINK all kind of HELLISH thoughts, and say/promote all kinds of purely evil things but it's not "acceptable" by most people standards.

NAZISM and white supremacy with all their clearly implicit and incarnate HORRORS are not "acceptable".
While most people would find the above abhorrent, having views and acting upon them are also two very separate things.

Because of free speech, it colors any number of things, but one person's free speech is another's opposite view. The actions that infringe on another unwilling person is illegal by law, so one group may want to eradicate another group, but until the time that any action is taken, it is protected.

If you don't like something, or find something particularly horrendous, you do your best to change that particular person's views, or approach it to change the general group's views.

Let's take it down to something innocuous - you like pretzels. X over there thinks they are the spawn of the devil, and preaches such to all that will listen. But until the time that X acts upon their hatred, breaks a law in regards to pretzels, it is protected.

Don't get me wrong, I would not voluntarily associate with someone who held neo-Nazi views or believed in white supremacy, but they have broken no law by holding those views.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:03 PM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Also, let's take the lowest percentage of this survey and assume that percentage can be applied to all of the American public.

OK so it's really only 3% who agree NAZI/W-Sup are acceptable ideas to "hold"/promote.
If we lowball rounding down to 300 million Americans, that's 9 million Americans that are OK with NAZI and white supremacist ideology.

For a comparison Gallup estimates from it's surveys that 3.4 Americans are LGBTQxyz.

they managed to get "the right" to marry?
Should anyone at least take seriously the NAZI/White Supremist alt right movements?

Here's another funny hypothetical question for those that ID right/ conservative/ Republican.
If ...in your own mind... a person who was a clear racist/neo-nazi became THE Republican congressional or presidential candidate, and HE or She ran against Hillary Clinton would you refuse to vote or would you vote AGAINST Hillary?
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:18 PM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
Also, let's take the lowest percentage of this survey and assume that percentage can be applied to all of the American public.

OK so it's really only 3% who agree NAZI/W-Sup are acceptable ideas to "hold"/promote.
If we lowball rounding down to 300 million Americans, that's 9 million Americans that are OK with NAZI and white supremacist ideology.

For a comparison Gallup estimates from it's surveys that 3.4 Americans are LGBTQxyz.

they managed to get "the right" to marry?
Should anyone at least take seriously the NAZI/White Supremist alt right movements?

Here's another funny hypothetical question for those that ID right/ conservative/ Republican.
If ...in your own mind... a person who was a clear racist/neo-nazi became THE Republican congressional or presidential candidate, and HE or She ran against Hillary Clinton would you refuse to vote or would you vote AGAINST Hillary?
I think that question was answered last November.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:19 PM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
While most people would find the above abhorrent, having views and acting upon them are also two very separate things.

Because of free speech, it colors any number of things, but one person's free speech is another's opposite view. The actions that infringe on another unwilling person is illegal by law, so one group may want to eradicate another group, but until the time that any action is taken, it is protected.

If you don't like something, or find something particularly horrendous, you do your best to change that particular person's views, or approach it to change the general group's views.

Let's take it down to something innocuous - you like pretzels. X over there thinks they are the spawn of the devil, and preaches such to all that will listen. But until the time that X acts upon their hatred, breaks a law in regards to pretzels, it is protected.

Don't get me wrong, I would not voluntarily associate with someone who held neo-Nazi views or believed in white supremacy, but they have broken no law by holding those views.
It's not a "FREE SPEECH" question, the question was about HOLDING the views.

And since you find the NAZI etc views "atrocious" it seems you might at some point "do your best to change that particular person's views".
And If you are trying to change their views that means, by default, that you don't think it's "acceptable" for them to hold them.

If someone thinks it's Acceptable then they don't CARE, if they change or not.
SALT Prezetals or Plain, pineapples or bananas, any are "acceptable". Our personal preference is not a moral judgment or statements that define everyone's reality.

but the ideologies of nazism and racial supremacy are by default morally corrupt and corrupting of any cultural or nation that absorbs it.


Tolerating a certain amount of crap in America's political pool may be a sad necessity, the price of freedom etc., but is it really "acceptable"?
no.
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Last edited by mr. wonder; 08-29-2017 at 01:30 PM..
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:25 PM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surly View Post
I think that question was answered last November.
well you know it went under reported but David Duke ran for congress again in November as well.
thankfully he lost.
so it's not nearly as bad as it could be.
most right wingers seem to recognize him as a TRUE racist.
while Trump ... in their minds... is not... but Obama Is...
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:32 PM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
It's not a "FREE SPEECH" question, the question was about HOLDING the views.

And since you find the NAZI etc views "atrocious" it seems you might at some point "do your best to change that particular person's views".
And If you are trying to change their views that means, by default, that you don't think it's "acceptable" for them to hold them.

If someone thinks it's Acceptable then they don't CARE, if they change or not.
SALT Prezetals or Plain, pineapples or bananas, any are "acceptable". Our personal preference is not a moral judgment or statements that define everyone's reality.

but the ideologies of nazism and racial supremacy are by default morally corrupt and corrupting of any cultural or nation that absorbs it.


Tolerating a certain amount of crap in America's political pool may be a sad necessity, the price of freedom etc., but is it really "acceptable"?
no.
I've already had this discussion with FI66.

Just about anyone will admit to an overwhelming urge to choke someone who has angered them. Is that thought - straight forward - no implied right to free speech- acceptable? No. But you cannot prevent someone from having that thought. Once you include the implied Right to Free Speech, you can't prevent them from saying it either.*

As long as they do not ACT on their views, no matter how abhorrent, you cannot prevent them from having those views.

Everything boils down to interpretation of the question. The question was phrased such that there was room for different interpretations.

*Legal forms of sentence structure draw a fine line between 'I would like to..' and 'I am going to'.
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Old 08-29-2017, 05:14 PM
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Post Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Enough of the line by line dissection. I don't hold conversations that way, so I don't normally type that way.
If you don't want to discuss it that way, you don't have to.
As I mentioned earlier, arguments have foundation points. The purpose of such responses is to address different foundation points.

In addition, sometimes people respond generically which can have the following effects:
A) Repeat what they previously said with no real value added.
B) Ignore different points raised that were inconvenient.

One such point that was ignored was that your commentary has some defense for people who replied "No Opinion".
It in no way addresses the fact that people who answered "acceptable" were making a clear statement on the explicit statement of whether neo-nazi views were acceptable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Regardless of what the actual topic is, somebody else holding a certain view, versus if you hold that view being acceptable is drastically different. This is where the question was ambiguous.
We both agree with the Dark Green portion.
We do not agree on the Dark Red portion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
I find Neo-Nazi and white supremacists views atrocious.
I find other people holding neo-Nazi and white supremacist views acceptable.
Again, I reference the dictionary definition of "hold".
hold:
a : to have in the mind or express as a judgment, opinion, or belief
I hold the view that this is wrong hold a grudge


Adding on the definition of "acceptable"
1 : capable or worthy of being accepted an acceptable noise level socially acceptable behavior a compromise that is acceptable to both sides
2 a : welcome, pleasing Compliments are always acceptable.
b : barely satisfactory or adequate The performances varied from excellent to acceptable.


These are the denotations of these words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
The first response is colored by personal views. In the second response 'right to hold' is implied.
If I do not find other people's views acceptable (again, the implied 'right to hold') then I feel they need to be censored (thought police), and therefore would open myself up to the same censorship by someone who disagrees with my personal views.
While I had to drill down on your link three times to actually get to the verbage of the survey, I didn't take the time to look at the demographics of the polled, or the number actually polled to create the 9%.
If one were to take that 9% as an honest number of Americans who literally find the neo-Nazi and white supremacist acceptable, as in, they agree with those views, then we have a problem.
Yes. We do.
And this is substantiated by numerous studies which examine black vs white situations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
When it comes to applying the same process to SSM, I accept that some people are gay/lesbian, I support their right to marry, I support their rights to be equal to any other human. That doesn't mean I am going to become gay or lesbian anytime soon, 'cause I'm wired a different way.
See? A whole post and not a single rolly-eyed critter to be seen.
You're ignoring the actual context of the involved question and provided example.
The example states: "Changing views among religious groups on whether homosexuality should be accepted".
By your interpretation, that would be read as to whether or not people thought homosexuality should be illegal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
Question 7 (lets vary the only the Subject to see if it makes a difference).
Do you yourself feel it is acceptable or unacceptable to hold Pedophile or sexual lust towards children views? Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?
Do you yourself feel it is acceptable or unacceptable to hold views advocating the annihilation and or subjugation of all white people? Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?
Sooo
Well... I find Pedophilia and sexual lust towards children views atrocious.
I find other people holding Pedophilia and sexual lust towards children views acceptable.

Well... I find advocating for the annihilation and or subjugation of all white people views atrocious.
I find other people advocating the annihilation and or subjugation of all white people acceptable.
I'm sorry but I don't see how it's "acceptable", in any general sense.
and AUTOMATICALLY reading into the question constitutional protections of "free speech" IS NOT implicit.

YES, People have a RIGHT to THINK all kind of HELLISH thoughts, and say/promote all kinds of purely evil things but it's not "acceptable" by most people standards.

NAZISM and white supremacy with all their clearly implicit and incarnate HORRORS are not "acceptable".
Thank you for the excellent example.
It provides both an example of something illegal (pedophilia) and not illegal (hold views advocating the annihilation and or subjugation of all white people)


Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
I've already had this discussion with FI66.
Just about anyone will admit to an overwhelming urge to choke someone who has angered them. Is that thought - straight forward - no implied right to free speech- acceptable? No. But you cannot prevent someone from having that thought. Once you include the implied Right to Free Speech, you can't prevent them from saying it either.*
As long as they do not ACT on their views, no matter how abhorrent, you cannot prevent them from having those views.
Everything boils down to interpretation of the question. The question was phrased such that there was room for different interpretations.
If you look at the meaning of the words "hold" and "acceptable", your claim is shown to be false.
You have connotations for those words which do not match the actual definition.

And furthermore, by your interpretation the people saying "acceptable" would be interpreted as just saying "should be legal to have that opinion", which is nonsense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
*Legal forms of sentence structure draw a fine line between 'I would like to..' and 'I am going to'.
Neither form is present in the actual question.
You're trying to insert words into the question which are not there.
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Old 08-30-2017, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

[QUOTE=foundit66;905034]Seriously?


But some right-wingers want to try to attack counter-protests against white supremacy as evil.

Can you name one single person? Or is that just how you feel?
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Old 08-30-2017, 04:47 PM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Actually Trump said there was a lot of good people marching on the side of the Nazi's. I am still trying to figure out why a single "good" person would march with the Nazis.[quote=Dog Man;905547]
Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
Seriously?


But some right-wingers want to try to attack counter-protests against white supremacy as evil.

Can you name one single person? Or is that just how you feel?
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