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Polls Discuss Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable: sur at the General Forum; Originally Posted by Lumara Agreeing that someone has the right to hold a view isn't the same as endorsing those ...

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Old 08-28-2017, 06:13 PM
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Post Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumara
Agreeing that someone has the right to hold a view isn't the same as endorsing those views.
What is it with some people in refusing to acknowledge what was actually said.
This IS NOT about "the right to hold a view".
The article said: "Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable"
Can you guys grow some honesty to admit what the actual question was and what simple English means?


As I pointed out earlier, Kaepernick bends his knee during the national anthem and the right wades in screaming how wrong it is.
But the question of whether or not neo-nazi / white supremacist views are wrong, and suddenly you guys want to talk instead about whether they have a "right" to that view.
And you can't even grasp the incongruity of it all...


Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
It's not Burke it's Big Brother you are reflecting. Unless we all participate in the hatefest enthusiastically then you are a racist as well. The American cultural revolution requires uniformity in thought and purging those who don't just like Chairman Mail's did.
Pure strawman argument hyperbole b.s. from AZRWinger.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Do White Supremacist views include objecting to reparations for slavery or affirmative action? Are "white" people required to be ashamed due to white privilege as even the ACLU was recently? If your name is similar to a Confederate General does that make you a white supremacist, one of them, someone to be assaulted or just shunned?
No, no, and no.
In that order.

Any other idiotic questions you want to ask?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
I find neo-nazi views vehemently repugnant. I have no desire to associate in any way with someone holding these views.
That being said, when you say it's "unacceptable" for someone to hold a view. That means, you cannot allow them to hold said view.
No. That's not what it means at all.
And what's more bizarre, the next part of your commentary should lead you to recognizing how absurd of an interpretation that is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
I find neo-nazi views vehemently repugnant. I have no desire to associate in any way with someone holding these views.

So how do you force them to stop holding a view? Yelling at them, imprisoning them, fining them, getting them fired, not allowing them to hold any sort of job whatsoever, beating them up. None of these things are going to stop them from holding their views.
How many people in our U.S. society have advocated for governmental action just for the existence of somebody holding a white supremacist view?
That answer alone should help you to recognize that the 83% who said "not acceptable" were NOT advocating that...

You guys are trying to reinvent the dictionary to try to pretend this question is more heinous than neo-nazis themselves.
It isn't.
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Old 08-29-2017, 07:58 AM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
What is it with some people in refusing to acknowledge what was actually said.
This IS NOT about "the right to hold a view".
The article said: "Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable"
Can you guys grow some honesty to admit what the actual question was and what simple English means?


As I pointed out earlier, Kaepernick bends his knee during the national anthem and the right wades in screaming how wrong it is.
But the question of whether or not neo-nazi / white supremacist views are wrong, and suddenly you guys want to talk instead about whether they have a "right" to that view.
And you can't even grasp the incongruity of it all...

Pure strawman argument hyperbole b.s. from AZRWinger.

No, no, and no.
In that order.

Any other idiotic questions you want to ask?

No. That's not what it means at all.
And what's more bizarre, the next part of your commentary should lead you to recognizing how absurd of an interpretation that is.

How many people in our U.S. society have advocated for governmental action just for the existence of somebody holding a white supremacist view?
That answer alone should help you to recognize that the 83% who said "not acceptable" were NOT advocating that...

You guys are trying to reinvent the dictionary to try to pretend this question is more heinous than neo-nazis themselves.
It isn't.
There are a dozen vague and misleading ways to ask a question that can get just as vague an answer. The phrasing of the question leaves it wide open for interpretation as per each person answering it in the survey.

Kaepernick's ACTION defined his intention, there were no ifs ands or buts about it, considering he completed his action with a statement.

You'll also notice, many discussions will flow to other points pertaining to the original post (and sometimes not). In this particular case, the comments and statements regarding the rights to have those views, were a natural progression of the original post.
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Old 08-29-2017, 10:29 AM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
There are a dozen vague and misleading ways to ask a question that can get just as vague an answer. The phrasing of the question leaves it wide open for interpretation as per each person answering it in the survey.

Kaepernick's ACTION defined his intention, there were no ifs ands or buts about it, considering he completed his action with a statement.

You'll also notice, many discussions will flow to other points pertaining to the original post (and sometimes not). In this particular case, the comments and statements regarding the rights to have those views, were a natural progression of the original post.

Through the years, I've been contacted by polling organizations on a number of occasions. Generally, the interviewer is not allowed to clarify a question or concept no matter how ambiguous it is. The interpretation is up to me.
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:21 AM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
There are a dozen vague and misleading ways to ask a question that can get just as vague an answer. The phrasing of the question leaves it wide open for interpretation as per each person answering it in the survey.
No. It really doesn't.
Here is how the question was phrased: "Do you yourself think it's acceptable or unacceptable to hold neo-Nazi or white Supremacist views? Do you feel that way strongly, or somewhat?"
That is not "vague or misleading".
It says absolutely nothing about whether it is a "right". Says nothing about whether or not people who are neo-nazis should lose their first amendment speaking rights.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Kaepernick's ACTION defined his intention, there were no ifs ands or buts about it, considering he completed his action with a statement.
Neo-nazi / white supremacist views are a much bigger problem than whether Kaepernick bends his knee to the national anthem.
People who refuse to see that are obviously bending over backwards for neo-nazis, while registering meaningless criticism over free speech.

It's funny how many right-wingers gloat over his career choices.
But it's the neo-nazis that right-wingers want to make sure are not inconvenienced...



Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
You'll also notice, many discussions will flow to other points pertaining to the original post (and sometimes not). In this particular case, the comments and statements regarding the rights to have those views, were a natural progression of the original post.

And when Mikeyy does it, it's wrong.
But when you guys do it, it's good.

I get the picture perfectly...
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:30 AM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
No. It really doesn't.
Here is how the question was phrased: "Do you yourself think it's acceptable or unacceptable to hold neo-Nazi or white Supremacist views? Do you feel that way strongly, or somewhat?"
That is not "vague or misleading".
It says absolutely nothing about whether it is a "right". Says nothing about whether or not people who are neo-nazis should lose their first amendment speaking rights.



Neo-nazi / white supremacist views are a much bigger problem than whether Kaepernick bends his knee to the national anthem.
People who refuse to see that are obviously bending over backwards for neo-nazis, while registering meaningless criticism over free speech.

It's funny how many right-wingers gloat over his career choices.
But it's the neo-nazis that right-wingers want to make sure are not inconvenienced...





And when Mikeyy does it, it's wrong.
But when you guys do it, it's good.

I get the picture perfectly...

One of the things to look at, actually one of, if not the most important thing is question construction. That question leaves no room for interpretation.
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:53 AM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
No. It really doesn't.
Here is how the question was phrased: "Do you yourself think it's acceptable or unacceptable to hold neo-Nazi or white Supremacist views? Do you feel that way strongly, or somewhat?"

That is not "vague or misleading".
It says absolutely nothing about whether it is a "right". Says nothing about whether or not people who are neo-nazis should lose their first amendment speaking rights.
That question still leaves the door open for interpretation. Implied thought policing? I know that is my reaction to that question.

Straight forward question would read 'Do you agree with neo-Nazi or White Supremacist views?"

And just for the books, no, I don't agree with neo-Nazi or White Supremacist views, I find them atrocious.


Quote:
Neo-nazi / white supremacist views are a much bigger problem than whether Kaepernick bends his knee to the national anthem.
People who refuse to see that are obviously bending over backwards for neo-Nazis, while registering meaningless criticism over free speech.
You're the one who posted Kaepernick, I responded. He mad a bad choice to express his thoughts in that manner. Just as when anyone who makes a public declaration while wearing the logo, emblem, or uniform of a specific organization, which is perceived to be a representation of said organization is subject to censure.

Quote:
It's funny how many right-wingers gloat over his career choices.
Some probably do.
Quote:
But it's the neo-nazis that right-wingers want to make sure are not inconvenienced...
I'll assume that was addressed to elsewhere, since it is not applicable to my response.

Quote:

And when Mikeyy does it, it's wrong.
But when you guys do it, it's good.

I get the picture perfectly...
I'm sure you do. Unfortunately, it's underdeveloped with no fixative.

"You guys?"
Natural progression doesn't usually include dropping the same subject in virtually every thread regardless of applicability. Have you actually read some of Mikeyy's posts?
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
What is it with some people in refusing to acknowledge what was actually said.
That's a good question.

Quote:
This IS NOT about "the right to hold a view".
That's a matter of perspective.

Quote:
The article said: "Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable"
That was the title of the article, but was not the question that was asked.

Quote:
Can you guys grow some honesty to admit what the actual question was and what simple English means?
Can you?

Quote:
As I pointed out earlier, Kaepernick bends his knee during the national anthem and the right wades in screaming how wrong it is.
He has every right to his views and they also have every right to object.


Quote:
But the question of whether or not neo-nazi / white supremacist views are wrong,
That's not the question that was asked. Let me put it bluntly for you. neo-nazi / white supremacist views are clearly unacceptable, repugnant, and wrong. But they still have every right to hold them.

Quote:
and suddenly you guys want to talk instead about whether they have a "right" to that view.
Yes because the question asked was not whether or not the views themselves were acceptable, they are not. But whether or not it's acceptable "to hold" those views. There is a distinction.

Quote:
And you can't even grasp the incongruity of it all...
Can you?

Quote:
Pure strawman argument hyperbole b.s. from AZRWinger.



No, no, and no.
In that order.

Any other idiotic questions you want to ask?
No, no and no seem like good answers to me.

Quote:
No. That's not what it means at all.
And what's more bizarre, the next part of your commentary should lead you to recognizing how absurd of an interpretation that is.
So what is your definition of unacceptable? You accuse me of "reinventing" the dictionary. Did you even look the word up? Maybe you should. Because that's EXACTLY what it means.

Quote:
How many people in our U.S. society have advocated for governmental action just for the existence of somebody holding a white supremacist view?
Plenty of people. If there's not, what is this question even about?

Quote:
That answer alone should help you to recognize that the 83% who said "not acceptable" were NOT advocating that...
They gave the politically correct answer. That's hardly surprising? Who want's to be painted as a monster?

Quote:
You guys are trying to reinvent the dictionary to try to pretend this question is more heinous than neo-nazis themselves.
It isn't.
How bout you look up the words "acceptable" and "to hold" and come back and tell us how we are reinventing the dictionary? And you are lying. No one has said that this question is more heinous than the neo-nazis themselves. Can we not call out the question and how bad it is and still believe that neo-nazis are horrible?


Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
No. It really doesn't.
Here is how the question was phrased: "Do you yourself think it's acceptable or unacceptable to hold neo-Nazi or white Supremacist views? Do you feel that way strongly, or somewhat?"
That is not "vague or misleading".
It says absolutely nothing about whether it is a "right". Says nothing about whether or not people who are neo-nazis should lose their first amendment speaking rights.
Notice the words "to hold" they change the question into a loaded question. If I say, "it's unacceptable" I'm saying no one should be "allowed" to hold these views. And yes, that's what the word means. Look it up. People absolutely should be allowed their views. Not only allowed them, but allowed to express them.

If I say, it's "acceptable" then apparently I'm agreeing with their views. I'm A OK with with what they say.

So yeah... it IS a bad question. It's loaded so there is no good answer to it.

Final comment. It's true I lean more right. But there are plenty of times when I disagree with the right as well. I have no love for neo-nazi's or white supremacists. But I believe strongly in freedom. It's easy to acknowledge the rights of those we agree with. But it is hypocrisy to not acknowledge and allow the same rights to those we find repulsive.
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:20 PM
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Post Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
That question still leaves the door open for interpretation. Implied thought policing? I know that is my reaction to that question.
I have seen that type of question raised in multiple other ways.
For example, whether a person considers homosexuality "acceptable".
Support steady for same-sex marriage and acceptance of homosexuality | Pew Research Center
I have never looked at that question and wondered whether legal action is implied.

"acceptable" is an explicit moral position.
And some people here are trying to confuse that recognition with implied legal action.

The reality of the question is the flip side.
Those who claim it was acceptable to hold neo-nazi views.
The question did not say anything about "thought policing". People who answered "acceptable" were making a clear statement on the explicit statement of whether neo-nazi views were acceptable.

Your comments may pose a potential explanation for the 8% who said "no opinion".
The 9% who said NEO-NAZI VIEWS ARE ACCEPTABLE are disgusting and cannot be excused by such claimed "implications".


Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Straight forward question would read 'Do you agree with neo-Nazi or White Supremacist views?"
And just for the books, no, I don't agree with neo-Nazi or White Supremacist views, I find them atrocious.
Quite frankly, some on the right have adopted a stance of doing the wink-wink / nudge-nudge approach for neo-Nazis.
They would rather spend an hour criticizing the left for a hyperbolic strawman when they criticize neo-nazis, rather than spend 10 seconds to state whether they think neo-nazi views are atrocious.

It's one of the reasons Trump's reaction to Charlottesville was so widely criticized.
But I guess maybe some would claim that such criticism was simply left-wingers trying to void his free speech...



Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
You're the one who posted Kaepernick, I responded. He mad a bad choice to express his thoughts in that manner.
Why?
One of the things that boggles my mind is that the confederate flag waged war on the U.S. of A.

Yet somehow we should respect that more than one man who bends a knee during the national anthem?

I consider waging a war against the U.S. of A. to be a much more serious offense than bending a knee.
And that's why I brought him up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Just as when anyone who makes a public declaration while wearing the logo, emblem, or uniform of a specific organization, which is perceived to be a representation of said organization is subject to censure.
One of the key differences is which one is the right-wing going to bat for now?

It is bizarre to me that many on the right are attacking even saying that neo-nazi views are "unacceptable" with a b.s. front of "you're attacking their first amendment views!!!"
Trying to paint counter-protesters as the bad guy.

I think the equivalent counter-situation would have been to try to paint all the people who claimed Kaepernick's knee bend was "unacceptable" as attacking his first amendment right.
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:34 PM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
That's a good question.
And you avoided it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
That's a matter of perspective.
No. It's not.
It's English comprehension of what words mean.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
That was the title of the article, but was not the question that was asked.
QUOTE the question involved.
Explain to me how the title does not match the question.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
He has every right to his views and they also have every right to object.

The problem is that if I were to take the stance of right-wingers, I would claim that people claiming Kaepernick's knee bend was "unacceptable" were threatening his first amendment rights.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
That's not the question that was asked. Let me put it bluntly for you. neo-nazi / white supremacist views are clearly unacceptable, repugnant, and wrong. But they still have every right to hold them.
Let me put this for you bluntly so maybe you can stop with this obfuscation.
NOBODY, INCLUDING THE POLL claimed neo-nazis did not have a right to hold their view.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
Yes because the question asked was not whether or not the views themselves were acceptable, they are not. But whether or not it's acceptable "to hold" those views. There is a distinction.
Do you even comprehend how fine of a nit you have picked here?

TO demonstrate your meaningless complaint, show me how a person can have a "view" but not "hold" that view.
You are claiming different meanings when they are not different.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
No, no and no seem like good answers to me.
Then let me ask you a question.
WHO IS SAYING that neo-nazis don't have a first amendment right to free speech?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
So what is your definition of unacceptable? You accuse me of "reinventing" the dictionary. Did you even look the word up? Maybe you should. Because that's EXACTLY what it means.
Zenock:
That being said, when you say it's "unacceptable" for someone to hold a view. That means, you cannot allow them to hold said view.
Show me the dictionary definition which backs up your claim.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
Plenty of people. If there's not, what is this question even about?
WHO?
Can you quantify the amount of these people?

And the purpose of the question was to expose people who proclaim boogey-men but cannot show significance to their claim. Your response is an obvious claim but fails to provide the evidence to validate your claim.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
They gave the politically correct answer. That's hardly surprising? Who want's to be painted as a monster?
And here is the disgusting aspect of the right.
They try to paint criticism of neo-nazis as wrong. Falsely claiming it's an attack on civil rights.

People who think it's acceptable to have neo-nazi views are wanting to be painted as monsters.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
How bout you look up the words "acceptable" and "to hold" and come back and tell us how we are reinventing the dictionary? And you are lying. No one has said that this question is more heinous than the neo-nazis themselves. Can we not call out the question and how bad it is and still believe that neo-nazis are horrible?
As I said a post ago, the problem comes up in people's eagerness to attack.
People like you want to spend hours attacking the left, but criticizing the neo-nazis will be just a 1 minute effort.
And then it's back to attacking the left.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
Notice the words "to hold" they change the question into a loaded question.
No. It doesn't.
It's a synonym. "To hold" an opinion is "to have" an opinion. There is no significance to that phrase which explicitly means "illegal to hold".
This is foolish nonsense you are spewing.


[quote=Zenock;905196]If I say, "it's unacceptable" I'm saying no one should be "allowed" to hold these views. And yes, that's what the word means. Look it up. People absolutely should be allowed their views. Not only allowed them, but allowed to express them.

hold:
a : to have in the mind or express as a judgment, opinion, or belief I hold the view that this is wrong hold a grudge

In no way does it mean what you claim.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
If I say, it's "acceptable" then apparently I'm agreeing with their views. I'm A OK with with what they say.
Why did you change your view there?
If you holding that opinion is "unacceptable", you want to make it illegal (supposedly).
But if you say holding that opinion is "acceptable", then that's not about legality?

Do you not even comprehend you switched standards?
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:47 PM
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Default Re: Nine percent of Americans say neo-Nazi or white supremacist views are acceptable:

Quote:
Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
I have seen that type of question raised in multiple other ways.
For example, whether a person considers homosexuality "acceptable".
Support steady for same-sex marriage and acceptance of homosexuality | Pew Research Center
I have never looked at that question and wondered whether legal action is implied.

"acceptable" is an explicit moral position.
And some people here are trying to confuse that recognition with implied legal action.

The reality of the question is the flip side.
Those who claim it was acceptable to hold neo-nazi views.
The question did not say anything about "thought policing". People who answered "acceptable" were making a clear statement on the explicit statement of whether neo-nazi views were acceptable.

Your comments may pose a potential explanation for the 8% who said "no opinion".
The 9% who said NEO-NAZI VIEWS ARE ACCEPTABLE are disgusting and cannot be excused by such claimed "implications".



Quite frankly, some on the right have adopted a stance of doing the wink-wink / nudge-nudge approach for neo-Nazis.
They would rather spend an hour criticizing the left for a hyperbolic strawman when they criticize neo-nazis, rather than spend 10 seconds to state whether they think neo-nazi views are atrocious.

It's one of the reasons Trump's reaction to Charlottesville was so widely criticized.
But I guess maybe some would claim that such criticism was simply left-wingers trying to void his free speech...




Why?
One of the things that boggles my mind is that the confederate flag waged war on the U.S. of A.

Yet somehow we should respect that more than one man who bends a knee during the national anthem?

I consider waging a war against the U.S. of A. to be a much more serious offense than bending a knee.
And that's why I brought him up.

One of the key differences is which one is the right-wing going to bat for now?

It is bizarre to me that many on the right are attacking even saying that neo-nazi views are "unacceptable" with a b.s. front of "you're attacking their first amendment views!!!"
Trying to paint counter-protesters as the bad guy.

I think the equivalent counter-situation would have been to try to paint all the people who claimed Kaepernick's knee bend was "unacceptable" as attacking his first amendment right.
Enough of the line by line dissection. I don't hold conversations that way, so I don't normally type that way.

Regardless of what the actual topic is, somebody else holding a certain view, versus if you hold that view being acceptable is drastically different. This is where the question was ambiguous.

I find Neo-Nazi and white supremacists views atrocious.
I find other people holding neo-Nazi and white supremacist views acceptable.

The first response is colored by personal views. In the second response 'right to hold' is implied.

If I do not find other people's views acceptable (again, the implied 'right to hold') then I feel they need to be censored (thought police), and therefore would open myself up to the same censorship by someone who disagrees with my personal views.

While I had to drill down on your link three times to actually get to the verbage of the survey, I didn't take the time to look at the demographics of the polled, or the number actually polled to create the 9%.

If one were to take that 9% as an honest number of Americans who literally find the neo-Nazi and white supremacist acceptable, as in, they agree with those views, then we have a problem.

When it comes to applying the same process to SSM, I accept that some people are gay/lesbian, I support their right to marry, I support their rights to be equal to any other human. That doesn't mean I am going to become gay or lesbian anytime soon, 'cause I'm wired a different way.

See? A whole post and not a single rolly-eyed critter to be seen.
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