I'm sorry but you have completely misread what I have posted, I have restated it, I'm not going to argue a point I didn't make.

I disagree with your stated "he had no qualifications", and it wasn't a FEMA screw up.

He wasn't the best but it wasn't his failings that caused those people to suffer.


I'm trying believe me I'm trying...........

Well what's even funnier is you trying to blame FEMA for the failures of the local and stated officals.

Not nearly as much as the state and local governments, who were in charge and the first responders, failed.

FEMA doesn't do rescue or search and recovery. They don't provide security. They don't provide medical care. They provide to local officials necessary resources. They don't take charge, they don't take over from the state and local officials and tell everyone what to do.

The Federal government provides assistance and resources, the state and local officials are in charge on the scene.


It was a simple question, you are quoting a statement by Bush to Brown. Do you know who spoke before Bush and what they said to Brown about the job he was doing? Simple question.

I have not "misread" anything.
Your actual argument is meaningless and without merit.

My point is simple.
The president gets criticized.
SO WHAT?


If there is one thing this president is not afraid of is criticism.
You refuse to even try to say that the criticism has an impact, so the question remains as to why the criticism is even worth mentioning.

Except if you're just looking for a flimsy excuse...


Of course you "disagree".
That's what you do. You "disagree"...

Despite your incapability to actually substantiate your "disagreement", you proclaim that you don't believe what is obvious to be true.

And when I turn around and ask you WHAT qualifications Brown had for the FEMA position, will you turn to his FAKE resume?

And it WAS a FEMA screw-up, along with state and local levels.
The fact that Brown resigned in disgrace is totally not an issue that penetrates your reality. You just "disagree".

Which issue do you just want to say "I disagree" on first, without actually discussing it?

FEMA Gets Tongue-Lashing Over Fraud, Official Angers Lawmakers After Doubting Katrina $ Was Spent For Bogus Reasons - CBS News
Lawmakers Fault FEMA on Trailers - washingtonpost.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/27/wa...27katrina.html


Yes. It was.


I can't understand how I should "believe" that when your tactics are so thoroughly repeatable.
What's really amusing to me is that in the "father" thread, you did more than "try". You put up a variety of studies on fathers in father-mother households vs single mothers.

But your response on these threads, where you have no real tangible ground, is markedly different.

You're "trying" to state objection without admitting that you have no grounds for it. That is what you're "trying" to do...


It's easy to tell when you yourself have no room for objection.
Your responses become meaningless one-liner retorts which are actually refuted by what was already said. Often, like this one, replete with strawman arguments...

I have acknowledged that FEMA, state, and local officials failed.
Just because state and local officials have failed doesn't mean that FEMA did its job adequately.

I am not trying to blame FEMA for the failures of the local and state officials.


Over and over again like a tired refrain you repeat that line.
It shouldn't need pointing out that the state and local governments were NEVER going to adequately respond to this issue alone.
THAT was a guaranteed failure...

The PURPOSE for FEMA's existence is epitomized by Hurricane Katrina, as much as their abysmal failure to adequately respond was shown.
FEMA WAS needed at Hurricane Katrina.
State and local governments were never going to be able provide enough help.

Continuing to harp on them only shows how weak your understanding of the situation was, and how weak your position truly is.


blah, blah, blah
You're doing it again.
OBFUSCATING.
I never mentioned ANY of those issues, yet you're deflecting from what FEMA did NOT do as a REQUIREMENT of their job, by talking about all sorts of things you think FEMA "doesn't do" that haven't been mentioned here before.

Here is what FEMA THEMSELVES say they do.

Advising on building codes and flood plain management...teaching people how to get through a disaster...helping equip local and state emergency preparedness...coordinating the federal response to a disaster...making disaster assistance available to states, communities, businesses and individuals...training emergency managers...supporting the nation's fire service...administering the national flood and crime insurance programs...the range of FEMA's activities is broad indeed and spans the life cycle of disasters.

The disaster life cycle describes the process through which emergency managers prepare for emergencies and disasters, respond to them when they occur, help people and institutions recover from them, mitigate their effects, reduce the risk of loss, and prevent disasters such as fires from occurring.

And at every stage of this cycle you see FEMA -- the federal agency charged with building and supporting the nation's emergency management system.

FEMA: What We Do


Not once have you responded to an actual criticism against FEMA.
Instead, all I get are these non-sequitur excuses...


Simple response.
IT DOES NOT CHANGE the point I was making.
Quit obfuscating.
Bush praised Brown's job.
THAT was my point.
NOTHING in the context changes that fact, so asking me meaningless questions is pointless.

Here's a simple question to you.
Does ANYTHING in the context of that event change the fact that Bush WAS praising Brown with those words?

Quit obfuscating the issue.
It's boring.

Days before Hurricane Katrina struck the Gulf Coast, the city of Chicago drew up a list of resources it was willing to make available for relief efforts in areas that might be hit by the storm. Chicago told the Federal Emergency Management Agency that in the event of disaster, it could spare more than 100 Chicago police officers, 36 Fire Department personnel, eight emergency medical experts, more than 130 staff from Chicago's Department of Public Health, 140 staff from the Department of Streets & Sanitation, dozens of trucks and two boats. These teams, Chicago Mayor Richard Daley told federal officials, could work in affected areas independently, bringing their own food, water and other supplies with them. But FEMA apparently wasn't interested. Despite the host of resources Chicago offered, and despite the televised lack of resources in New Orleans, as of late last week, FEMA had requested only one thing from Chicago -- a single tanker truck. "I was shocked," Daley said at a news conference on Friday. "We are ready to provide considerably more help than they have requested. We are just waiting for a call."

Daley wasn't the only generous donor to be rebuffed. Throughout last week, various local and state governments, corporations and nonprofit organizations across the nation attempted to help in the relief effort, only to be snubbed by federal officials -- officials who were themselves providing precious little aid to those in need. Citing security concerns, the Department of Homeland Security barred the American Red Cross from entering New Orleans with food. Five hundred Floridian airboaters were ready to rescue people stranded in inundated homes, but FEMA turned them down. Twenty sheriff's deputies from Loudoun County, Va., suffered a similar fate. And Aaron Broussard, the president of Jefferson Parish, La., said on "Meet the Press" on Sunday that FEMA declined to let him accept three tanker trucks of water donated by Wal-Mart, as well as 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel stored in a Coast Guard vessel docked in his district.

Why FEMA failed

Sen. Robert Bennett, R-Utah, suggested Brown may have delayed the federal response by cutting Homeland Security out of the loop about the levee failures and going straight to the White House.

“I think I now understand why Secretary Chertoff says he didn’t know,” Bennett said. “The reason he didn’t know is because you didn’t think it important to tell him.”

Brown said he communicated directly with the White House instead of Homeland Security because FEMA’s parent agency “just bogged things down.”

MSNBC.com

In the midst of the chaos and horror of the hurricane’s aftermath, Bahamonde sent a dire e-mail to Michael Brown saying victims had no food and were dying. No response came from Brown. Instead, less than three hours later, an aide to Brown sent an e-mail saying her boss wanted to go on a television program that night. But first, the aide said, Brown needed at least an hour to eat dinner at a Baton Rouge restaurant, writing, “He needs much more than 20 or 30 minutes.” Some 19 pages of internal FEMA e-mails revealed Thursday show Bahamonde gave regular updates to people in contact with Brown as early as August 28, the day before Katrina hit. They appear to contradict Brown, who has said he was not fully aware of the conditions until days after the storm hit.

Headlines for October 21, 2005

Yes you are off on a tangent and I'm not going to respond to arguments I haven't made.

what on earth are you talking about?


He was a administrator in his previous job and was a deputy administrator at FEMA previously.

Was he the best, no. Was what happened in NOLA because of his qualifications or lack thereof, no.

He resigned because he wasn't going to take it anymore.


Welcome to big government. Now let's hope they can determine if anything criminal was done by the suppliers of the trailers and federal inspectors of them.


Nope, Nagin and Blanco head that list.


But your response on these threads, where you have no real tangible ground, is markedly different.

You're "trying" to state objection without admitting that you have no grounds for it. That is what you're "trying" to do...



It's easy to tell when you have nothing of substance and you start engaging in attacks of the post not the substance.

FEMA can only react to their request, the state and local officials are in charge of the operations NOT FEMA.


Had they done their jobs as they should have yes the initial rescue and recovery are handled by them, what federal assistence is provided is done at their request.

There was no guaranteed failure, the incompetence of the local and state officials caused it.

Again FEMA is NOT a first responder, FEMA does NOT head up rescue and recovery efforts. FEMA is not capable of do such things and certainly is in no position to do a better job of it than the state and local officials who have PRIMARY responsibilty.

How many hurricanes and recoveries from them have you been through?

I have lived on the coast all my life. It is NOT the federal government that comes riding in on the white horse to save us. It is the responsiblity of the state and local officials FEMA comes in after the fact.



And you remain oblivious to the facts.

What do you think rescue and recovery are all about?

Here is what FEMA THEMSELVES say they do.

Oh that's EXACTLY what NOLA needed the first days after Katrina hit, yep that's what was lacking, FEMA did not come in and hold training classes.

And state and local officials do that do you really think FEMA is a fire department or can better tell the NOLA fire department how to operate in such an emergency?


Because the responsibility you are criticizing them for is primarily the job of the state and local officials.



So did the Governors and Mayors just before Bush spoke, they had been doing so all day during Bush tour which started in AL went through MS and ended up in LA. As Rove said the other night, did you expect Bush to contradict all the local officals who had just thanked FEMA for the job they were doing?

And the last thing they needed was a bunch of people rushing in, uncordinated acting indepently bringing in supplies with no place to put them no place to store them, no way to disperase them, they would have caused more problems than they could solve even if they could get into NOLA which was a massive problem in and of itself. It wasn't a shortage of supplies it was getting them in. All the while the rescue efforts were going on. There were lots of stories of well intentioned people wanting to rush in with food and clothing and medical supplies, but until the local officials get control of the situation, can figure out where they can put them and how they are going to disperse the supplies, where they can even place people and provide them with security, direct the search and rescue and on and on and on.

You STILL have the idea that FEMA takes over and directs everything, they DO NOT. It all starts with the state and local officials, FEMA responds to their request and their direction. And in this case both Nagin and Blanco proved to be total incompitents. And in the end General Honore took over, probably unconstitutionally and probably after a phone call from Bush to Blanco telling her that in spite of her objections he was going to take over the operations in NOLA. THEN FEMA could get it's resources and supplies into the area.

Why did it go so well in MS and AL but not NOLA?

And remember the Katina bypassed NOLA, it did not take the direct hit, NOLA's problems started the day AFTER the Hurricane struck.

I'm just pointing out that your ACTUAL argument has no meaning.
What I have been doing is expounding on hypotheticals that would give your ACTUAL argument meaning, and pointing out that NONE of them have any substance.

If you refuse to give any ACTUAl meaning to your ACTUAL argument, then I agree with the implicit acknowledgement that your point was meaningless.


You complained that people might criticize the president.
I am pointing out that is a meaningless comment.


By that analysis, an "administrator" at Wal-Mart would be perfectly capable of taking over as "administrator" for NASA.
He was not qualified.
The fact that you resort to lame vagueries, refusing to directly state what his "previous job" was (not the one he lied about on his resume) says a lot....


That's not what a bipartisan investigation found.


I'm glad he could finally not tolerate his own incompetence.
Or was it his conscience over his failure that he couldn't take?


Three articles detailing distinct failures of FEMA, and your response is "welcome to big government"????

That, and the "determine if anything criminal was done"?
Great standards you got going on there. IGNORE whether he was competent, and lower the bar to just "did he commit any crimes"...


I have done much more than that.
I have CITED CRITIQUES of the FEMA failures, and the best you can muster is "welcome to big government".

You are a master of ignoring proof, and pretending that it's the fault of others...


This is bordering on a boring lie.
I have posted SIX resources detailing FEMA failures, and you blindly ignore them with "nothing of substance"...
... incapable of arguing against them.

I think you're confused on who has lacked "substance", as you just repeat criticisms I originally made of you...
You lack originality as well!


Meaningless non-sequitur.
If my criticism was "FEMA should have taken charge", then this response would be legitimate.
But since I never even hinted at such criticism, these comments are meaningless.

FEMA "reacted" by PREVENTING OUTSIDE HELP from reaching New Orleans.
Another item you'll ignore...


One of the points I keep making, which you obviously keep responding to, is that NOBODY could have expected the state and local government to adequately respond to this.

Brown HIMSELF repeatedly states that this disaster was a "nightmare".
If the state and local government COULD HAVE handled this on their own, then there is no real need for FEMA to exist.


Anybody who expects that the state and local government could have been able to adequately respond to Katrina under the BEST of their operations is demonstrating they have no idea what actually happened.
Katrina's cost is estimated at $25B.
FEMA was needed REGARDLESS of how good or bad the local and state officials were.


You're incredibly wrong about "not capable".
And "not a first responder" is irrelevant.

One fact of the matter that you cannot respond to was that FEMA WAS NEEDED.
Even if the state and local government responded above and beyond par, FEMA WAS NEEDED.

Even reading Brown's statements to Congress shows this.


Meaningless non-sequitur.
What you're doing is like saying you got a sunburn, therefore you think you can adequately judge how a doctor properly treats third degree burns.


Their own web-site proves you wrong.

Response begins as soon as a disaster is detected or threatens. It involves mobilizing and positioning emergency equipment; getting people out of danger; providing needed food, water, shelter and medical services; and bringing damaged services and systems back on line. Local responders, government agencies and private organizations take action. Sometimes the destruction goes beyond local and state capabilities. That's when federal help is needed as well.
FEMA employee inspects flood damage from a small boatWhen the state and local governments are overwhelmed by a disaster, they make a request for federal aid through a Presidential disaster or emergency declaration. Typically, federal assistance is financial. However, the federal government may be asked to mobilize resources from any number of federal agencies, and to participate in the response. This is when the government implements the Federal Response Plan.

FEMA: About FEMA

You obviously haven't a clue on this issue. FEMA proves your claims wrong.


You have yet to PRESENT ANY facts.
All you do is ignore the proof I show, while you present ABSOLUTELY NOTHING on your end.


I think it is covered by Response begins as soon as a disaster is detected or threatens. It involves mobilizing and positioning emergency equipment; getting people out of danger; providing needed food, water, shelter and medical services; and bringing damaged services and systems back on line.


You are a walking plethora of logical fallacies.
"training classes" is one of MANY things that FEMA does, but you ignore the RELEVANT items and fixate on the IRRELEVANT approach to the then current problem.


Another meaningless non-sequitur.
I don't think FEMA is a fire department. I never made any hint that FEMA was a fire department.
And when I point out that one INCOMPETENT thing FEMA did was PREVENT outside "fire department" help from reaching New Orleans, you'll ignore it.


1) What "responsibility" am I "criticizing them for"?
You keep talking about STRAW-MEN and avoiding what RESPONSIBILITY I am ACTUALLY criticizing them for.

2) "primarily"...
But FEMA DOES have a part in this job as well.
And FEMA did NOT do their job well.


So you're saying that Bush was clueless, and just repeating what other people you have EXPRESSLY stated as incompetent had said???
Gee. That's a MUCH better position...

Actually, what I "expect Bush" to do is to speak the TRUTH.
He should KNOW the truth.
When a bunch of other people YOU STATE were incompetent say something, he should have people telling him the truth.
And he should SPEAK the truth.

It's beyond me why you would think that it would be preferable for Bush to repeat a lie...

I am repeatedly bored by abundant hyperboles and strawmen.

Your description of how you think FEMA would have acted is hardly flattering. It demonstrates gross incompetence, which amusingly you have been trying to argue against...

1) "uncoordinated"? No. They should have been coordinated. That is what is SUPPOSED to happen when you have an organization like FEMA which is EXPLICITLY formed to work WITH state and local officials.
But your expectation that they would have been "uncoordinated" is singing my tune...

2) "independently"? See #1.

3) "no place to store them"? My GAWD man. That's why you BRING THAT IN with you. Geez!
The food stays on the refrigerated truck, and an ORDERLY and COORDINATED dispension system is utilized.

4) "no way to disperse them"? Again, FEMA is supposed to help with that. There were PEOPLE OFFERING FEMA HELP to take care of things like this, and FEMA REFUSED.


It's funny how the news organization had people CRAWLING ALL OVER that place, yet people like you insist that "getting in" was a problem.
FEMA had people reporting from WITHIN New Orleans, and you think "getting in" was a problem.


FEMA should have helped with that. Providing intelligence on the developing situation.
Instead, they were concerned over whether or not Brownie would get an hour to eat...


Strawman that I am growing bored with.
NONE of my arguments pretend that FEMA "takes over". I have repeatedly pointed that out.
At this stage, you're just advocating a stupid lie.


It starts with the formal request for FEMA aid, which was inevitably made and I believe quickly responded to by the President.
And then Brown did little but obstruct help.

I have given six articles detailing FEMA failures, and all you can do in response is repeat this strawman argument that I think FEMA.

Picking from ONE of the MANY FEMA failures described above, FEMA did not allow volunteered help to enter New Orleans. That was bad.
A GOOD response would have been to coordinate their entry into New Orleans.
From YOUR presentation, the state / local government could have HYPOTHETICALLY screwed things up by their own efforts.
But it was FEMA'S JOB to get that help there. There to be a RESOURCE FOR the state / local.
And they DID NOT.

The state / local governments cannot be blamed for help that was never MADE AVAILABLE IN STATE.


MS and AL were not hit anywhere near as bad as New Orleans, with busted levees.
When you have a more critical problem, incompetence is more glaring.
When you have a less critical problem, incompetence is less glaring.
I can't believe I actually have to explain that to you.


"bypassed" as in a hand grenade didn't hit a person, but only landed near his feet.
The utility system in New Orleans ALONE had damage at $10Billion.
"bypassing" is a stupid argument which attempts to ignore the INCREDIBLE damage that WAS done in New Orleans.

Brownie considers what DID happen as a "nightmare".
Who the %@#$ are you to be so brazen with your assessment of the situation?

No more or less than I am with yours.
You obviously don't comprehend what the situation was in New Orleans and the surrounding area. You simply cannot allow an uncontrolled stream of people in and you can only let in those you can support and provide the logistics and that has to be done in conjunction with the city and the state, the two entity who have authority in the area and those two entities were where the failures were.

And there is nowhere to put those people and the city has to manage that along with the state and they were totally dysfunctional at that point because of the leadership.

Again what was the difference there and in MS and AL, the state and local government did their jobs. Not only did FEMA have to deal with the flood in NOLA they had to deal with a totally dysfunctional government, there was no security and there were reports of rescuers being shot at, mass rape, gangs and mass looting. The city was out of control and the Governor refused to allow the Federal government come in and establish order. There was no shortage of supplies it was a matter of being able to get them in.

The state and local set the whole stage for the events when THEY failed to properly respond BEFORE the storm, they did not impliment the plans they had set, they failed to order a mandatory evacuation, they failed to get their resources up and running immediately afterwards. So FEMA had to deal with that along with the storm itself.

And yes FEMA had it's own problems but had the state and locals done their jobs like mine did it's job, then while still a major disaster the rescue and recovery would have been smoother and fewer people would have been stranded for less time and the city would not have fallen apart around everyone.

But let's not lose sight of the fact that it was an incredible job a lot of well meaning and hard working people did. Compare that to how disasters are handled in other countries and be glad you live here.

Again, when you can't respond to the point, you just mimic my assessment of your position.
You even lack originality!


Boring strawman.
I never said anything about "uncontrolled stream of people".

It is hyperbole to pretend that the only alternative to what FEMA did was "uncontrolled stream of people".
The funny part about this is that the NEWS MEDIA COULD REACH NEW ORLEANS.
They didn't have a problem.

But when people VOLUNTEERED to FEMA to help, they were NOT "controlled" for entry.
Their help was IGNORED.

So quit pretending that it's an issue of "uncontrolled stream of people".
FEMA's "control" was an idiotic "don't bother to show up to help".


Prove your claim there was "nowhere to put those people"...

Quit making up stupid claims...


I grow bored with your repeated technique of just plain ignoring when somebody corrects you.
First, you tried just saying "No it wasn't", even though you couldn't do anything more.
I gave you MULTIPLE links showing how FEMA went wrong, which you promptly ignored...
And now you're ignoring people when they answer your questions...

MS and AL were not hit anywhere near as bad as New Orleans, with busted levees.
When you have a more critical problem, incompetence is more glaring.
When you have a less critical problem, incompetence is less glaring.
I can't believe I actually have to explain that to you.


Another bad hyperbole of the situation, along with repeating urgan legends.

New Orleans police have been unable to confirm the tale of the raped child, or indeed any of the reports of rapes, in the Superdome and convention centre.
New Orleans police chief Eddie Compass said last night: "We don't have any substantiated rapes. We will investigate if the individuals come forward."

And while many claim they happened, no witnesses, survivors or survivors' relatives have come forward.

Nor has the source for the story of the murdered babies, or indeed their bodies, been found. And while the floor of the convention centre toilets were indeed covered in excrement, the Guardian found no corpses.

Murder and rape - fact or fiction? | World news | The Guardian


This is mind-bogglingly pointless...
Of COURSE if the state and local officials had done their jobs things would have gone smoother.
That does NOT mean that FEMA did not have any MAJOR screw-ups.

I have given six web-sites showing their screw-ups.
You've ignored the points made while just parrotting the same crap over and over again.

Fact: The difference was that New Orleans was the HARDEST HIT.
Try to refute that if you can...

Fact: Brownie didn't get the help IN in the first place. The state and local governments cannot work with resources they did not have available.
Try to refute that if you can...

As previously pointed out, the Congressional inspection found that Brownie DID NOT INFORM HIS SUPERIORS adequately of the situation.
Brown gets an e-mail saying that people HAVE NO FOOD and were DYING, and the response Brownie's crowd gives is to point out that Brown wants an hour for dinner.

HOW you can continue to obfuscate this is beyond me.
Over and over again you try to blame local and state, and then pretend that Brownie did his job.
You CANNOT even give me any evidence that Brownie DID his job.


I'm glad Brown is out of FEMA, and glad Bush will soon be out of the White House.
And "a lot of well meaning and hard working people" join me in that sentiment.

Why New Orleans was different?
MORE DAMAGE!!!

Hurricane Katrina caused at least $125 billion in economic damage and could cost the insurance industry up to $60 billion in claims, a leading risk assessment firm said in updated estimates Friday.
....
She estimated damage to infrastructure such as roads and bridges and the utility system in New Orleans alone at more than $10 billion.

USATODAY.com - Katrina damage estimate hits $125B
All by itself, ONE SPECIFIC category of damage in JUST NEW ORLEANS (one city) eats up almost 1/10th of the damage costs.

Nearly every levee in metro New Orleans breached as Hurricane Katrina passed east of the city, subsequently flooding 80% of the city and many areas of neighboring parishes for weeks.[4]

Also, deaths by state. Let's pick the two YOU want to compare to...
AL: 2 deaths.
MS: 238 deaths.
Louisiana: 1,577
Hurricane Katrina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also:

The government was accused of making things worse, instead of