Political Wrinkles  

Go Back   Political Wrinkles > General Forum > Opinions & Editorials
Register FAQDonate PW Store PW Trivia Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Opinions & Editorials Discuss Our rights, as Americans at the General Forum; The following is from an attorney, Michael Ford: I would be remiss if I did not point out that the ...

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2020, 05:03 PM
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Tennessee
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,528
Thanks: 15,251
Thanked 5,343 Times in 3,422 Posts
Default Our rights, as Americans

The following is from an attorney, Michael Ford:

I would be remiss if I did not point out that the draconian measures now in place are unwarranted. Social distancing - yes. Good hygiene - yes. Closing down most businesses and interfering with the fundamental right to interstate travel guaranteed by the Privileges and Immunities clause - I think not. Freedom of movement under United States law is governed primarily by the Privileges and Immunities Clause of the United States Constitution which states, "The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States." Since the circuit court ruling in Corfield v. Coryell, 6 Fed. Cas. 546 (1823), freedom of movement has been judicially recognized as a fundamental Constitutional right. In Paul v. Virginia, 75 U.S. 168 (1869), the Court defined freedom of movement as "right of free ingress into other States, and egress from them." Laws or other forms of state action that impinge upon rights considered to be “fundamental” get a skeptical judicial reception; under a “strict scrutiny” standard, courts will presume that a law is unconstitutional. To pass strict scrutiny, the state action must be to further "compelling governmental interest," and must have narrowly tailored the law to achieve that interest. Narrowly tailored is not a phrase I would use when describing what's happening here.

This coronavirus is far less problematic than the 2009 H1N1 outbreak, and is mutating to a less deadly version at the expected pace.

Compare the H1N1 timeline to today: On April 25, 2009 the World Health Organization (WHO) declared a public health emergency of international concern. On April 26, 2009, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services declared Swine Flu a public health emergency. Six months later (October 24, 2009), after more than 3,800 Americans had died, Obama declared Swine Flu a national emergency in the United States. On November 12, 2009 (18 days later), the CDC reported an estimated 22 million Americans had been infected with 2009 A H1N1 and 4,000 Americans have died. On December 10, 2009, the CDC reported an estimated 50 million Americans or 1 in 6 people had been infected with the 2009 A H1N1 Virus and 10,000 Americans had died, by which time the vaccine was beginning to be widely distributed to the general public by several states. On December 23, 2009 the CDC reported a reduction of the disease by 59% percent and the disease was expected to end in the United States in January 2010.

On January 15, 2010, the CDC released new estimate figures for swine flu, saying it has sickened about 55 million Americans and killed about 11,160 from April through mid-December. On February 12, 2010, the CDC released updated estimate figures for swine flu, reporting that, in total, 57 million Americans had been sickened, 257,000 had been hospitalized and 11,690 people had died (including 1,180 children) due to swine flu.


In any case, the current restrictions--although well intentioned--beg the (very important!) question: Are our civil liberties merely privileges, magnanimously granted by the government (and subject to suspension--arbitrarily--at any time)? Or are they fundamental rights, which are inherent to us?

Moreover: Does the US Constitution grant us certain rights? Or does it merely codify our natural rights?

Think about it...
__________________
"In his second inaugural address, [Franklin D.] Roosevelt sought 'unimagined power' to enforce the 'proper subordination' of private power to public power. He got it…"—George Will, July 8, 2007
Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to pjohns For This Useful Post:
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2020, 06:36 PM
saltwn's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Esto perpetua
Posts: 87,321
Thanks: 56,906
Thanked 26,776 Times in 19,233 Posts
Send a message via AIM to saltwn Send a message via MSN to saltwn Send a message via Yahoo to saltwn
Default Re: Our rights, as Americans

wonder if this author thinks blackouts during the war were draconian or the federal police presence during integration. I think not.
besides being a complete paranoia generating airhead, the guy is no journalist just a hack for soap sales.
__________________
I just hate to give up my Christmas spirit.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2020, 08:08 PM
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Tennessee
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,528
Thanks: 15,251
Thanked 5,343 Times in 3,422 Posts
Default Re: Our rights, as Americans

Quote:
Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
wonder if this author thinks blackouts during the war were draconian or the federal police presence during integration. I think not.
besides being a complete paranoia generating airhead, the guy is no journalist just a hack for soap sales.
Do you believe that the author's statistics are wrong? If so, which ones? What would you replace them with? And on what authority?

Moreover, you did not even attempt to answer either of the two questions that I asked, viz.:

(1) "Are our civil liberties merely privileges, magnanimously granted by the government (and subject to suspension--arbitrarily--at any time)? Or are they fundamental rights, which are inherent to us?"

And (2) "Does the US Constitution grant us certain rights? Or does it merely codify our natural rights? [Bold in original]
__________________
"In his second inaugural address, [Franklin D.] Roosevelt sought 'unimagined power' to enforce the 'proper subordination' of private power to public power. He got it…"—George Will, July 8, 2007
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-10-2020, 10:09 PM
Conservative Sage
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 20,039
Thanks: 13,615
Thanked 14,992 Times in 8,610 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to AZRWinger
Default Re: Our rights, as Americans

Quote:
Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
wonder if this author thinks blackouts during the war were draconian or the federal police presence during integration. I think not.
besides being a complete paranoia generating airhead, the guy is no journalist just a hack for soap sales.
Right, if you question the draconian measures imposed during the pandemic you are a racist. How about if you opposed rounding up Japanese, German and Italian citizens by Presidential decree? Does that make you a traitor?

Anything done to combat the pandemic seamlessly translates into a mechanism to combat global climate change. Both are justified by reliance on deeply flawed studies masquerading as science and a media that has whored out any pretense of journalism.
__________________
If Democrats were confident their nominee actually received more than 80 million votes they wouldn't have more troops occupying Washington, DC than Lincoln had defending the city during the Civil War. Not Joe Biden, Kim Jung Biden.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to AZRWinger For This Useful Post:
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2020, 04:34 PM
jamesrage's Avatar
Scholar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: A place where common sense still exist.
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,428
Thanks: 2,309
Thanked 2,509 Times in 1,475 Posts
Default Re: Our rights, as Americans

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
The following is from an attorney, Michael Ford:

I would be remiss if I did not point out that the draconian measures now in place are unwarranted. Social distancing - yes. Good hygiene - yes. Closing down most businesses and interfering with the fundamental right to interstate travel guaranteed by the Privileges and Immunities clause - I think not. Freedom of movement under United States law is governed primarily by the Privileges and Immunities Clause of the United States Constitution which states, "The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States." Since the circuit court ruling in Corfield v. Coryell, 6 Fed. Cas. 546 (1823), freedom of movement has been judicially recognized as a fundamental Constitutional right. In Paul v. Virginia, 75 U.S. 168 (1869), the Court defined freedom of movement as "right of free ingress into other States, and egress from them." Laws or other forms of state action that impinge upon rights considered to be “fundamental” get a skeptical judicial reception; under a “strict scrutiny” standard, courts will presume that a law is unconstitutional. To pass strict scrutiny, the state action must be to further "compelling governmental interest," and must have narrowly tailored the law to achieve that interest. Narrowly tailored is not a phrase I would use when describing what's happening here.

This coronavirus is far less problematic than the 2009 H1N1 outbreak, and is mutating to a less deadly version at the expected pace.

Compare the H1N1 timeline to today: On April 25, 2009 the World Health Organization (WHO) declared a public health emergency of international concern. On April 26, 2009, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services declared Swine Flu a public health emergency. Six months later (October 24, 2009), after more than 3,800 Americans had died, Obama declared Swine Flu a national emergency in the United States. On November 12, 2009 (18 days later), the CDC reported an estimated 22 million Americans had been infected with 2009 A H1N1 and 4,000 Americans have died. On December 10, 2009, the CDC reported an estimated 50 million Americans or 1 in 6 people had been infected with the 2009 A H1N1 Virus and 10,000 Americans had died, by which time the vaccine was beginning to be widely distributed to the general public by several states. On December 23, 2009 the CDC reported a reduction of the disease by 59% percent and the disease was expected to end in the United States in January 2010.

On January 15, 2010, the CDC released new estimate figures for swine flu, saying it has sickened about 55 million Americans and killed about 11,160 from April through mid-December. On February 12, 2010, the CDC released updated estimate figures for swine flu, reporting that, in total, 57 million Americans had been sickened, 257,000 had been hospitalized and 11,690 people had died (including 1,180 children) due to swine flu.


If you think about how many die each year to influenza(12 to 61 thousand deaths a year), healthcare acquired infections(99 thousand deaths a year), and sepsis( 270 thousand deaths per year) this covid-19 virus is being way the fuck overblown.



Quote:
In any case, the current restrictions--although well intentioned--beg the (very important!) question: Are our civil liberties merely privileges, magnanimously granted by the government (and subject to suspension--arbitrarily--at any time)? Or are they fundamental rights, which are inherent to us?

Moreover: Does the US Constitution grant us certain rights? Or does it merely codify our natural rights?

Think about it...

1.I would say the Constitution codifies our natural rights.However without those rights being enshrined in the constitution they would be gone a long time ago.So one could argue the constitution grants us rights.

2.The constitution does not grant the government any right to suspend those rights regardless if the constitution codifies or grants rights.
__________________
"There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag… We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language… and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”—Theodore Roosevelt
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to jamesrage For This Useful Post:
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2020, 01:28 AM
Dave1's Avatar
...Fair and Balanced...
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Houston, Texas
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,760
Thanks: 4,530
Thanked 5,712 Times in 3,359 Posts
Default Re: Our rights, as Americans

When its OK to get on a small aircraft and sit next to anyone touching shoulders and arms for 1-2 hours sharing a single restroom and it's NOT OK to go to the beach or go to parks, or go to hotels with family, the situation is totally controlled and totally F-ed up imo….

I am sick and tired of the pandering fear to the herds by people that want to control the masses over a 1.5 % death rate...

~ "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".....LN


The entire state of Minnesota has been shut down for a while and they have stretched plans for closings out to August…..???

That is insane....

As of today, only 67 people have died to co-v at this point.....

More people die there on the roads drunk or texting....

This is going to be a huge learning lesson for all states....

Lets hope this madness gets turned off and we can start the economy going again in all states ASAP.....

Last edited by Dave1; 04-12-2020 at 01:38 AM..
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dave1 For This Useful Post:
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2020, 08:09 AM
Jeerleader's Avatar
Master
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Upper Bucks County, PA
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,590
Thanks: 1,505
Thanked 2,350 Times in 1,063 Posts
Default Re: Our rights, as Americans

There's a reason why I call this event the DEMpanic pandemic.

Leftist statist authoritarians will not be forgetting how easy it was to disable fundamental rights . . . Rights that are formally, expressly excluded from the powers granted to government with no "except when we say there's an emergency" clause to be relied on to violate them.
__________________
You can’t truly call yourself “peaceful” unless you are capable of great violence.
If you are incapable of violence, you are not peaceful, you are just harmless.

Last edited by Jeerleader; 04-12-2020 at 08:24 AM..
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jeerleader For This Useful Post:
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2020, 10:10 AM
Conservative Sage
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 20,039
Thanks: 13,615
Thanked 14,992 Times in 8,610 Posts
Send a message via ICQ to AZRWinger
Default Re: Our rights, as Americans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeerleader View Post
There's a reason why I call this event the DEMpanic pandemic.

Leftist statist authoritarians will not be forgetting how easy it was to disable fundamental rights . . . Rights that are formally, expressly excluded from the powers granted to government with no "except when we say there's an emergency" clause to be relied on to violate them.
Don't forget the pandemic panic is in response to wildly inflated scientific estimates of death and destruction from the Chinese virus. The Resistance media is filled with condemnation of the Trump administration for being too slow and too timid to shut down the economy and our freedoms but more disturbing are the calls to extend crippling restrictions in the public interest.

Don't be so naive as to think the radical Leftists ascendant in the Democrat party don't see the opportunity to apply the same restrictions from the Corona virus forecasts of doom to remake the country in the image of the green new deal. Just like the pandemic the so-called science foretells of global doom unless we submit to repressive socialism. Just as the fear of a pandemic enabled government to impose previously unthinkable restrictions on the People, the Green new deal's prescription for turning people out of their homes and businesses so they can be rebuilt to a new government standard on an indefinite timeline and budget has moved from an aspirational goal to an operational objective. Enabling the green new deal will be the enduring legacy of the Chinese virus crisis.
__________________
If Democrats were confident their nominee actually received more than 80 million votes they wouldn't have more troops occupying Washington, DC than Lincoln had defending the city during the Civil War. Not Joe Biden, Kim Jung Biden.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to AZRWinger For This Useful Post:
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2020, 10:51 AM
Dave1's Avatar
...Fair and Balanced...
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Houston, Texas
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,760
Thanks: 4,530
Thanked 5,712 Times in 3,359 Posts
Default Re: Our rights, as Americans

Motor vehicle crash deaths state by state.....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ipcTXVyTMmwE_V
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave1 For This Useful Post:
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-13-2020, 11:14 AM
mr wonder's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Virginia
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,569
Thanks: 12,311
Thanked 8,866 Times in 5,726 Posts
Default Re: Our rights, as Americans

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
The following is from an attorney, Michael Ford:

I would be remiss if I did not point out that the draconian measures now in place are unwarranted. Social distancing - yes. Good hygiene - yes. Closing down most businesses and interfering with the fundamental right to interstate travel guaranteed by the Privileges and Immunities clause - I think not. Freedom of movement under United States law is governed primarily by the Privileges and Immunities Clause of the United States Constitution which states, "The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States." Since the circuit court ruling in Corfield v. Coryell, 6 Fed. Cas. 546 (1823), freedom of movement has been judicially recognized as a fundamental Constitutional right. In Paul v. Virginia, 75 U.S. 168 (1869), the Court defined freedom of movement as "right of free ingress into other States, and egress from them." Laws or other forms of state action that impinge upon rights considered to be “fundamental” get a skeptical judicial reception; under a “strict scrutiny” standard, courts will presume that a law is unconstitutional. To pass strict scrutiny, the state action must be to further "compelling governmental interest," and must have narrowly tailored the law to achieve that interest. Narrowly tailored is not a phrase I would use when describing what's happening here.

This coronavirus is far less problematic than the 2009 H1N1 outbreak, and is mutating to a less deadly version at the expected pace.

Compare the H1N1 timeline to today: On April 25, 2009 the World Health Organization (WHO) declared a public health emergency of international concern. On April 26, 2009, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services declared Swine Flu a public health emergency. Six months later (October 24, 2009), after more than 3,800 Americans had died, Obama declared Swine Flu a national emergency in the United States. On November 12, 2009 (18 days later), the CDC reported an estimated 22 million Americans had been infected with 2009 A H1N1 and 4,000 Americans have died. On December 10, 2009, the CDC reported an estimated 50 million Americans or 1 in 6 people had been infected with the 2009 A H1N1 Virus and 10,000 Americans had died, by which time the vaccine was beginning to be widely distributed to the general public by several states. On December 23, 2009 the CDC reported a reduction of the disease by 59% percent and the disease was expected to end in the United States in January 2010.
On January 15, 2010, the CDC released new estimate figures for swine flu, saying it has sickened about 55 million Americans and killed about 11,160 from April through mid-December. On February 12, 2010, the CDC released updated estimate figures for swine flu, reporting that, in total, 57 million Americans had been sickened, 257,000 had been hospitalized and 11,690 people had died (including 1,180 children) due to swine flu.
...
true

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
In any case, the current restrictions--although well intentioned--beg the (very important!) question: Are our civil liberties merely privileges, magnanimously granted by the government (and subject to suspension--arbitrarily--at any time)? Or are they fundamental rights, which are inherent to us?
They are fundamental rights, which are inherent to us.
AND are unconstitutionally subject to suspension--arbitrarily--at any time by local state and federal "authorities".
From the side of the road, to your house, to your phone, mail and email, to the choice of meds you want to put in your or your family's bodies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Moreover: Does the US Constitution grant us certain rights? Or does it merely codify our natural rights?
.
it merely codifies our natural rights.
However the "authorities" and "officials" find various ways to arbitrarily ignore or deny them.
Often with the cheering support of a large group of "concerned" and earnest citizenry.
Which portion of constitutional rights is considered less than necessary by the citizenry often depends on which party is implementing the changes and on who they mainly effect.


Check points and checking IDs of people traveling in the US is A-OK if they speak Spanish or don't look "american" , At least as far as some folks are concerned.

the codified natural human rights spoken of in the constitution supposedly only apply to "Americans" to hear some tell it.
Indefinite detention without trial is OK ... too to hear some tell it. As long as you're a "foreign" suspect.

SO yes, the codified natural human rights are there for us all but seemingly only a portion of citizens --and fewer officials--- are really comfortable promoting or protecting ALL of them for everyone across the board.
__________________
.
"It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties.
The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents."

..James Madison
.
"Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God."
..1 Peter 2:16

Last edited by mr wonder; 04-13-2020 at 11:20 AM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
americans, our, rights

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0