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Old 11-05-2019, 10:53 AM
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Default Paying the price for breakdown of the country's bourgeois culture

This is a long article, but is worth the read. The author hits the nail on the head as for the root problems in our society while leaving religion out of the discussion (something that I would probably add).

Quote:
Too few Americans are qualified for the jobs available. Male working-age labor-force participation is at Depression-era lows. Opioid abuse is widespread. Homicidal violence plagues inner cities. Almost half of all children are born out of wedlock, and even more are raised by single mothers. Many college students lack basic skills, and high school students rank below those from two dozen other countries.

The causes of these phenomena are multiple and complex, but implicated in these and other maladies is the breakdown of the country's bourgeois culture.

That culture laid out the script we all were supposed to follow: Get married before you have children and strive to stay married for their sake. Get the education you need for gainful employment, work hard, and avoid idleness. Go the extra mile for your employer or client. Be a patriot, ready to serve the country. Be neighborly, civic-minded, and charitable. Avoid coarse language in public. Be respectful of authority. Eschew substance abuse and crime.

These basic cultural precepts reigned from the late 1940s to the mid-1960s. They could be followed by people of all backgrounds and abilities, especially when backed up by almost universal endorsement. Adherence was a major contributor to the productivity, educational gains, and social coherence of that period.

Did everyone abide by those precepts? Of course not. There are always rebels — and hypocrites, those who publicly endorse the norms but transgress them. But as the saying goes, hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue. Even the deviants rarely disavowed or openly disparaged the prevailing expectations.

Was everything perfect during the period of bourgeois cultural hegemony? Of course not. There was racial discrimination, limited sex roles, and pockets of anti-Semitism. However, steady improvements for women and minorities were underway even when bourgeois norms reigned. Banishing discrimination and expanding opportunity does not require the demise of bourgeois culture. Quite the opposite: The loss of bourgeois habits seriously impeded the progress of disadvantaged groups. That trend also accelerated the destructive consequences of the growing welfare state, which, by taking over financial support of families, reduced the need for two parents. A strong pro-marriage norm might have blunted this effect. Instead, the number of single parents grew astronomically, producing children more prone to academic failure, addiction, idleness, crime, and poverty.

This cultural script began to break down in the late 1960s. A combination of factors — prosperity, the Pill, the expansion of higher education, and the doubts surrounding the Vietnam War — encouraged an antiauthoritarian, adolescent, wish-fulfillment ideal — sex, drugs, and rock-and-roll — that was unworthy of, and unworkable for, a mature, prosperous adult society. This era saw the beginnings of an identity politics that inverted the color-blind aspirations of civil rights leaders like the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. into an obsession with race, ethnicity, gender, and now sexual preference.

And those adults with influence over the culture, for a variety of reasons, abandoned their role as advocates for respectability, civility, and adult values. As a consequence, the counterculture made great headway, particularly among the chattering classes — academics, writers, artists, actors, and journalists — who relished liberation from conventional constraints and turned condemning America and reviewing its crimes into a class marker of virtue and sophistication.

All cultures are not equal. Or at least they are not equal in preparing people to be productive in an advanced economy. The culture of the Plains Indians was designed for nomadic hunters, but is not suited to a First World, 21st-century environment. Nor are the single-parent, antisocial habits, prevalent among some working-class whites; the anti-"acting white" rap culture of inner-city blacks; the anti-assimilation ideas gaining ground among some Hispanic immigrants. These cultural orientations are not only incompatible with what an advanced free-market economy and a viable democracy require, they are also destructive of a sense of solidarity and reciprocity among Americans. If the bourgeois cultural script — which the upper-middle class still largely observes but now hesitates to preach — cannot be widely reinstated, things are likely to get worse for us all.

Would the re-embrace of bourgeois norms by the ordinary Americans who have abandoned them significantly reduce society's pathologies? There is every reason to believe so. Among those who currently follow the old precepts, regardless of their level of education or affluence, the homicide rate is tiny, opioid addiction is rare, and poverty rates are low. Those who live by the simple rules that most people used to accept may not end up rich or hold elite jobs, but their lives will go far better than they do now. All schools and neighborhoods would be much safer and more pleasant. More students from all walks of life would be educated for constructive employment and democratic participation.

But restoring the hegemony of the bourgeois culture will require the arbiters of culture — the academics, media, and Hollywood — to relinquish multicultural grievance polemics and the preening pretense of defending the downtrodden. Instead of bashing the bourgeois culture, they should return to the 1950s posture of celebrating it.
https://www.inquirer.com/philly/opin...-20170809.html
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Old 11-05-2019, 12:14 PM
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Default Re: Paying the price for breakdown of the country's bourgeois culture

Any number of people will use the basis of the first sentence as support for FREE COLLEGE FOR ALL!

As society progresses, and automation expands, jobs may go away, but new ones are created.

Yes, morals and ethics have also changed around the edges. Some I'm OK with, others I'm not. But if society doesn't evolve, it will smother it's self trying to maintain previous and out dated 'cultures' and traditions.

It's not going to happen tomorrow, but yes, 'we' will someday look back and say 'how did we ever survive that?'
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Old 11-05-2019, 01:57 PM
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Default Re: Paying the price for breakdown of the country's bourgeois culture

FREE COLLEGE for everyone actually diminishes the value of a College degree.

But why go if that is not what is best for you?

I have four brothers. Two completed college to or beyond a BA. One lives is a town house barely ahead of his bills. The other is a retired teacher with money in the bank and a decent pension.

Two others, like me, did not attend or finish to a degree. Of the three who did not, one became a preacher with a music recording studio, one is a programmer, multi millionaire. As for myself, not exactly a millionaire but, a reasonably well off successful business owner.

All of us came from abject poverty. None of us married money. Whether it was a college degree or technical training, we paid for it with our own money and therefore held a respectful appreciation for it. And subsequently did fairly well in life.

No shrinks required, no gubmit subsidies requested, no one to blame for our failures, only ourselves to take pride in success.

How can free college guarantee what self reliant pride offers?
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Old 11-05-2019, 02:20 PM
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Default Re: Paying the price for breakdown of the country's bourgeois culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Any number of people will use the basis of the first sentence as support for FREE COLLEGE FOR ALL!

As society progresses, and automation expands, jobs may go away, but new ones are created.

Yes, morals and ethics have also changed around the edges. Some I'm OK with, others I'm not. But if society doesn't evolve, it will smother it's self trying to maintain previous and out dated 'cultures' and traditions.

It's not going to happen tomorrow, but yes, 'we' will someday look back and say 'how did we ever survive that?'
If that is what they get out of this article, they are completely missing the point.
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Old 11-06-2019, 07:00 AM
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Default Re: Paying the price for breakdown of the country's bourgeois culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
This is a long article, but is worth the read. The author hits the nail on the head as for the root problems in our society while leaving religion out of the discussion (something that I would probably add).



https://www.inquirer.com/philly/opin...-20170809.html
Thank you for this interesting discussion.


Quote:
Too few Americans are qualified for the jobs available. Male working-age labor-force participation is at Depression-era lows.
I have noticed this. I can only speak for what I have observed and read about. But I am led to believe we have diminished our investment in education. Sometimes it seems more of an active campaign against it than mere neglectfulness.

Quote:
Opioid abuse is widespread. Homicidal violence plagues inner cities. Almost half of all children are born out of wedlock, and even more are raised by single mothers.
These things seem the resulting society under breakdown rather than the causes.

Quote:
Many college students lack basic skills, and high school students rank below those from two dozen other countries.
Basic skill sets are learned at home. Sadly both parents must work to survive a lot of times today. you can have single worker and maybe a part time work at home second parent but not every family can do that.
Quote:
The causes of these phenomena are multiple and complex, but implicated in these and other maladies is the breakdown of the country's bourgeois culture.

That culture laid out the script we all were supposed to follow: Get married before you have children and strive to stay married for their sake. Get the education you need for gainful employment, work hard, and avoid idleness. Go the extra mile for your employer or client.
the starting wages and available education may have a lot to do with this problem.
Quote:
Be a patriot, ready to serve the country. Be neighborly, civic-minded, and charitable. Avoid coarse language in public. Be respectful of authority. Eschew substance abuse and crime.
television w/o censure. just because it's cable doesn't mean we have to allow it to come into our living room w/o a say in its usefulness to society.


Quote:
These basic cultural precepts reigned from the late 1940s to the mid-1960s. They could be followed by people of all backgrounds and abilities, especially when backed up by almost universal endorsement. Adherence was a major contributor to the productivity, educational gains, and social coherence of that period.
we had a better not necessarily bigger, but better social safety net and more protection as consumers.
Quote:
Did everyone abide by those precepts? Of course not. There are always rebels — and hypocrites, those who publicly endorse the norms but transgress them. But as the saying goes, hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue. Even the deviants rarely disavowed or openly disparaged the prevailing expectations.

Was everything perfect during the period of bourgeois cultural hegemony? Of course not. There was racial discrimination, limited sex roles, and pockets of anti-Semitism. However, steady improvements for women and minorities were underway even when bourgeois norms reigned
.
I think that seems mostly correct.

Quote:
Banishing discrimination and expanding opportunity does not require the demise of bourgeois culture. Quite the opposite: The loss of bourgeois habits seriously impeded the progress of disadvantaged groups.
yes
Quote:
That trend also accelerated the destructive consequences of the growing welfare state, which, by taking over financial support of families, reduced the need for two parents. A strong pro-marriage norm might have blunted this effect. Instead, the number of single parents grew astronomically, producing children more prone to academic failure, addiction, idleness, crime, and poverty.
when we required that a male -working or not-not be in the household in order for the family to receive help, we destroyed millions of families imho.


Quote:
This cultural script began to break down in the late 1960s. A combination of factors — prosperity, the Pill, the expansion of higher education, and the doubts surrounding the Vietnam War — encouraged an antiauthoritarian, adolescent, wish-fulfillment ideal — sex, drugs, and rock-and-roll — that was unworthy of, and unworkable for, a mature, prosperous adult society. This era saw the beginnings of an identity politics that inverted the color-blind aspirations of civil rights leaders like the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. into an obsession with race, ethnicity, gender, and now sexual preference.
I don't think so. There was a huge bunch of teens and young adults. This group is always willful. However, most of them who survived that era's war and drug culture sought out a decent life and were applying themselves as their parents had into becoming valuable contributing patriots.


Quote:
And those adults with influence over the culture, for a variety of reasons, abandoned their role as advocates for respectability, civility, and adult values. As a consequence, the counterculture made great headway, particularly among the chattering classes — academics, writers, artists, actors, and journalists — who relished liberation from conventional constraints and turned condemning America and reviewing its crimes into a class marker of virtue and sophistication.
Again, just as there are always teenagers, there's always a counter-culture. I don't believe it took over.


Quote:
All cultures are not equal. Or at least they are not equal in preparing people to be productive in an advanced economy. The culture of the Plains Indians was designed for nomadic hunters, but is not suited to a First World, 21st-century environment. Nor are the single-parent, antisocial habits, prevalent among some working-class whites; the anti-"acting white" rap culture of inner-city blacks; the anti-assimilation ideas gaining ground among some Hispanic immigrants. These cultural orientations are not only incompatible with what an advanced free-market economy and a viable democracy require, they are also destructive of a sense of solidarity and reciprocity among Americans. If the bourgeois cultural script — which the upper-middle class still largely observes but now hesitates to preach — cannot be widely reinstated, things are likely to get worse for us all.
When you cannot get on that ladder much less climb up you roll with what you have to do to feed your kids. Again I say not considering the male as part of the family in need was a deep mistake.

Quote:
Would the re-embrace of bourgeois norms by the ordinary Americans who have abandoned them significantly reduce society's pathologies? There is every reason to believe so.
if it's a rat race to survive you may lose your ethics.


Quote:
Among those who currently follow the old precepts, regardless of their level of education or affluence, the homicide rate is tiny, opioid addiction is rare, and poverty rates are low. Those who live by the simple rules that most people used to accept may not end up rich or hold elite jobs, but their lives will go far better than they do now. All schools and neighborhoods would be much safer and more pleasant. More students from all walks of life would be educated for constructive employment and democratic participation.
ethics and abject poverty might look like insanity to some. and I didn't say genteel poverty I said abject.


Quote:
But restoring the hegemony of the bourgeois culture will require the arbiters of culture — the academics, media, and Hollywood — to relinquish multicultural grievance polemics and the preening pretense of defending the downtrodden. Instead of bashing the bourgeois culture, they should return to the 1950s posture of celebrating it.
The only things about that era they often bash are prejudice and ignorance, certainly, I have never seen a celebrity seriously advocate for being less civil.
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Last edited by saltwn; 11-06-2019 at 07:07 AM..
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Old 11-06-2019, 11:41 AM
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Default Re: Paying the price for breakdown of the country's bourgeois culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
Thank you for this interesting discussion.
Thank you for joining the discussion.

Quote:
I have noticed this. I can only speak for what I have observed and read about. But I am led to believe we have diminished our investment in education. Sometimes it seems more of an active campaign against it than mere neglectfulness.
We have NOT diminished our investment in education, but rather we have bastardized what is being called education into indoctrination as the public schools have been hijacked by the NEA. Schools are dropping vocational classes in favor of college prep courses. This harms kids in a number of ways and further bloats the colleges with some that should not be there.

Quote:
These things seem the resulting society under breakdown rather than the causes.
I beg to differ. This is the result of the ME Generation looking for a way to tune out when things don't go their way.

Quote:
Basic skill sets are learned at home. Sadly both parents must work to survive a lot of times today. you can have single worker and maybe a part time work at home second parent but not every family can do that.
Really? Reading, writing and arithmetic are taught at home? Why then do we send them to school for 12 years? What are they being taught there? The problem is that instead of teaching the basics, they are being taught Social Justice and given participation trophies.

Quote:
the starting wages and available education may have a lot to do with this problem.
So the notions that people should get married before having children, stay married, get educated, work hard are not available because the minimum wage is too low?

Quote:
television w/o censure. just because it's cable doesn't mean we have to allow it to come into our living room w/o a say in its usefulness to society.
HERE is where the parents should come into play. You seem to want to excuse the government in their compact to provide education above, but want the government to raise our children by censorship. I prefer that as a parent I tell my children what they can and cannot view. That is what is lacking in a good number of households in this country.

Quote:
we had a better not necessarily bigger, but better social safety net and more protection as consumers.
Really? I don't think so. The ever expansive and overbearing government did not come about until the late 60's and early 70's. Prior to that, people took responsibility for themselves and their families along with communities. When someone lost their job, the local community stepped in and helped the family get back on their feet. And usually, that meant that instead of sitting at home collecting unemployment endlessly, people got off their butt, pounded the pavement and found other employment out of a sense of pride. It used to be embarrassing to have to use food stamps and gov't assistance to get by. Now the stigma has been removed and people are quite happy to do so.

Quote:
I think that seems mostly correct.
Glad you are not completely lost in the woods.

Quote:
yes
After quite a few comments were you disagree with the specific points the author makes, you disagree with the summary? Wow.

Quote:
when we required that a male -working or not-not be in the household in order for the family to receive help, we destroyed millions of families imho.
I partially agree. The point is that when a safety net is provided, there are quite a few that will look to take advantage of it. That is what we are seeing now. Some people will gladly accept living off the gov't dole as a lifestyle.

Quote:
I don't think so. There was a huge bunch of teens and young adults. This group is always willful. However, most of them who survived that era's war and drug culture sought out a decent life and were applying themselves as their parents had into becoming valuable contributing patriots.
So you are saying that when these teens and young adults grew up, they accepted responsibility? Some did of course, but quite a few didn't and we are seeing the affects of that years later.

Quote:
Again, just as there are always teenagers, there's always a counter-culture. I don't believe it took over.
Again, some adults never grew up and accepted their responsibility in society and they passed that along to their kids. I personally know of a few. Their kids have turned out very much like them.

Quote:
When you cannot get on that ladder much less climb up you roll with what you have to do to feed your kids. Again I say not considering the male as part of the family in need was a deep mistake.
I believe that you are agreeing that a home is in need of both a father and a mother. If so, I agree.

Quote:
if it's a rat race to survive you may lose your ethics.
Ok.

Quote:
ethics and abject poverty might look like insanity to some. and I didn't say genteel poverty I said abject.
No it is insanity to believe that the lack of ethics will ever work to promote the general welfare of society. And until the general welfare is addressed, abject poverty will exist.

Quote:
The only things about that era they often bash are prejudice and ignorance, certainly, I have never seen a celebrity seriously advocate for being less civil.
You need to pay attention. Off the top of my head Ashley Judd just after Trumps inauguration bragging about how nasty she can be. There are plenty of other examples if you care to look.
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Old 11-06-2019, 01:45 PM
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Default Re: Paying the price for breakdown of the country's bourgeois culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
Thank you for joining the discussion.



We have NOT diminished our investment in education, but rather we have bastardized what is being called education into indoctrination as the public schools have been hijacked by the NEA. Schools are dropping vocational classes in favor of college prep courses. This harms kids in a number of ways and further bloats the colleges with some that should not be there.

schools dropped vo-tech years ago. They should revamp or recreate vo-tech to reflect our needs today. I wish they did offer better college prep but I fear they do not by the looks of entrance exams. We wouldn't need much of that if they had to pass English/Grammar, History/Civics, Math through Calculus and Science through physics and Geometry in order to graduate with a diploma. I would also tie a diploma to the first driver's license killing two birds with one stone.

I beg to differ. This is the result of the ME Generation looking for a way to tune out when things don't go their way.

In the 80s adults in Houston tuned out with massive cocaine addiction. These were already adults, not teens. They were squeezed or abruptly laid off /fired from good jobs. The economy changed. These were the people at the top of the middle-class tier. Those in the middle had to leave and go look for employment. Some moved several times for that. Some never did find it again. A lot of things happened with banking, unions, regulation that helped some but hurt many others.
Really? Reading, writing and arithmetic are taught at home? Why then do we send them to school for 12 years? What are they being taught there? The problem is that instead of teaching the basics, they are being taught Social Justice and given participation trophies.

basic history of what's right and wrong, silly or accepted and the importance of education also ethics is taught at home when there's anyone there.
So the notions that people should get married before having children, stay married, get educated, work hard are not available because the minimum wage is too low?

if there is no hope you just don't care or you grab your good time cause you know that may be all there is
HERE is where the parents should come into play. You seem to want to excuse the government in their compact to provide education above, but want the government to raise our children by censorship. I prefer that as a parent I tell my children what they can and cannot view. That is what is lacking in a good number of households in this country.

there is no device my grandson cannot de childproof. He's eight.
Really? I don't think so. The ever expansive and overbearing government did not come about until the late 60's and early 70's. Prior to that, people took responsibility for themselves and their families along with communities.
there were no women's shelters, no child protective services
When someone lost their job, the local community stepped in and helped the family get back on their feet. And usually, that meant that instead of sitting at home collecting unemployment endlessly, people got off their butt, pounded the pavement and found other employment out of a sense of pride. It used to be embarrassing to have to use food stamps and gov't assistance to get by. Now the stigma has been removed and people are quite happy to do so.
if the community didn't know you needed help or was not aware of you at all then what?

Glad you are not completely lost in the woods.


After quite a few comments were you disagree with the specific points the author makes, you disagree with the summary? Wow.

please clarify
I partially agree. The point is that when a safety net is provided, there are quite a few that will look to take advantage of it. That is what we are seeing now. Some people will gladly accept living off the gov't dole as a lifestyle.

if wages had kept up we would have that great economy tv keeps lying about and more people could afford niceties like better morals.
So you are saying that when these teens and young adults grew up, they accepted responsibility? Some did of course, but quite a few didn't and we are seeing the affects of that years later.

yes until they lost their jobs and moved all over to find work became homeless tried again then died or are now on a smaller retirement than they thought they'd have.

Again, some adults never grew up and accepted their responsibility in society and they passed that along to their kids. I personally know of a few. Their kids have turned out very much like them.


I believe that you are agreeing that a home is in need of both a father and a mother. If so, I agree.
if the parents are a man and a woman yes. welfare seems to have no problem with an unemployed lesbian friend living with. two unemployed (because of lack of available work) gay male parents in the 80s couldn't get squat even if they said they're just roommates.

Ok.


No it is insanity to believe that the lack of ethics will ever work to promote the general welfare of society. And until the general welfare is addressed, abject poverty will exist.

until the over all shiddy economy is addressed we have an ever growing lower class.
You need to pay attention. Off the top of my head Ashley Judd just after Trumps inauguration bragging about how nasty she can be. There are plenty of other examples if you care to look.
I'm not talking about in retaliation to some awful thing Trump said or did. in general, celebrities seem to promote beneficial things, healthy lifestyles and acceptance. At least that has been my view from watching them.
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Old 11-06-2019, 02:24 PM
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Default Re: Paying the price for breakdown of the country's bourgeois culture

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
I have four brothers. Two completed college to or beyond a BA. One lives is a town house barely ahead of his bills. The other is a retired teacher with money in the bank and a decent pension.

Two others, like me, did not attend or finish to a degree. Of the three who did not, one became a preacher with a music recording studio, one is a programmer, multi millionaire. As for myself, not exactly a millionaire but, a reasonably well off successful business owner.
This suggests what I have long maintained: A four-year college degree is not the guarantor of success that it once was. (My stepson attended technical school instead; and he--like you--is certainly no millionaire; but he is quite successful.)
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