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Opinions & Editorials Discuss Professor Charles Kesler warns of the 'intoxicating bargain' offered by progressivism at the General Forum; Following the collapse of the Russian collusion narrative the Resistance has become obsessed with the idea of America as a ...

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Old 08-21-2019, 08:46 AM
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Default Professor Charles Kesler warns of the 'intoxicating bargain' offered by progressivism

Following the collapse of the Russian collusion narrative the Resistance has become obsessed with the idea of America as a thoroughly racist country from the early days of colonialism right up to the contemporary. This story of unabashed racism targeting first slaves then so-called people of color was supposedly condoned by the Declaration of Independence which declared all men created equal but didn't outlaw slavery a common practice at the time. Painful as it is to those on the Left condemning the US for this original sin there is another perspective worth considering.

Here is an excerpt from a recent interview with professor Charles Kesler on the dreaded Fox News channel.

Quote:
Well, the best line about the Declaration, I think, was spoken by Bernard Bailyn, the great Harvard historian of the Revolutionary Period, when he said the Declaration of Independence did not solve the problem of slavery, it created the problem of slavery.

And what he meant by that is, there have been plenty of republics in human history, particularly in the ancient a world that had slavery as a fundamental institution of the republics, of their way of life, and they saw no contradiction between the two.

But when you start a Republican form of government and a way of life, by saying all men are created equal, you make slavery problematic. You make slavery wrong and a problem because the country that declared its independence also, of course, did have slaves in almost every state of the union at that point.
The republic's of classical Greece and Rome not only accepted slavery but depended on it to serve the elites who actually ran the government. Yet after the DOI slavery was viewed as a problem that would have to be dealt with rather than a foundational institution.

Fast forward to 20 years past the ratification of the Constitution.

Quote:
The Constitution being a bundle of compromises among 13 states that had different opinions about some things compromised also in the issue of slavery. For example, the new Congress to pass any laws interfering with the International Slave Trade for 20 years; fast forward 20 years, the very first day that it was possible for Congress to pass a law interfering with the International Slave Trade, they did. They made that trade illegal, the very first day they were constitutionally able to do so.
The contemporary fashion is to condemn the US as conceived in a commitment to slavery. But their is another perspective that explains how the DOI and later the Constitution led to the outlawing of the institution.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox...gressivism.amp
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Old 08-22-2019, 09:18 AM
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Default Re: Professor Charles Kesler warns of the 'intoxicating bargain' offered by progressi

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
The contemporary fashion is to condemn the US as conceived in a commitment to slavery. But their is another perspective that explains how the DOI and later the Constitution led to the outlawing of the institution.
I would disagree with the above because the founding of the United States was based upon the same "progressive v conservative" conflict that exists today. This is not a reference to conservative meaning Republican and progressive meaning Democrat but instead it's reference to the true meanings of the words in a social, economic, and political sense.

In the classical sense the term progressive refers to a step by step process to improve the circumstances based upon an ideological belief. The founding of the United States was the most liberal ideology for the social, economic, and political institutions of any nation in world history. It still is.

At the same time those with power and wealth would be adversely affected by the new liberal ideology. They were the conservatives that sought to retain the existing social, economic, and political institutions. They fought tooth and nail against it and because they had the wealth and power they were quit successful.

The founders such as Jefferson, Hamilton, and Madison knew that they would be unable to create the liberal social, economic, and political institutions they envisioned because of the resistance of the "conservatives" to those changes. They were pragmatic in attempting to install as much of their ideology in the Constitution as possible and they left it to future generations to overcome the wealth and power of the conservatives over time. They left the United States to the Progressives that could take us towards the fulfillment of their ideology for America.

Yes, that included the ending of the institution of slavery that they all came to oppose when they embraced the ideology they established for America. We're still trying to reach their ideological goal of equality and the "conservatives" continue to fight against that.
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Old 08-22-2019, 11:20 AM
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Default Re: Professor Charles Kesler warns of the 'intoxicating bargain' offered by progressi

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
I would disagree with the above because the founding of the United States was based upon the same "progressive v conservative" conflict that exists today. This is not a reference to conservative meaning Republican and progressive meaning Democrat but instead it's reference to the true meanings of the words in a social, economic, and political sense.

In the classical sense the term progressive refers to a step by step process to improve the circumstances based upon an ideological belief. The founding of the United States was the most liberal ideology for the social, economic, and political institutions of any nation in world history. It still is.

At the same time those with power and wealth would be adversely affected by the new liberal ideology. They were the conservatives that sought to retain the existing social, economic, and political institutions. They fought tooth and nail against it and because they had the wealth and power they were quit successful.

The founders such as Jefferson, Hamilton, and Madison knew that they would be unable to create the liberal social, economic, and political institutions they envisioned because of the resistance of the "conservatives" to those changes. They were pragmatic in attempting to install as much of their ideology in the Constitution as possible and they left it to future generations to overcome the wealth and power of the conservatives over time. They left the United States to the Progressives that could take us towards the fulfillment of their ideology for America.

Yes, that included the ending of the institution of slavery that they all came to oppose when they embraced the ideology they established for America. We're still trying to reach their ideological goal of equality and the "conservatives" continue to fight against that.
Again you dishonestly edit most of my comment. This time in an attempt to derail the thread into your favorite passion play of Progressives vs Conservatives. Coupling your dishonesty with stupidity is not a good look for you.

If you'd care to discuss the seeds of abolition sowed by the DOI and incorporated into the Constitution it would be a refreshing departure from your usual partisan hyperbole.
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Old 08-22-2019, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: Professor Charles Kesler warns of the 'intoxicating bargain' offered by progressi

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If you'd care to discuss the seeds of abolition sowed by the DOI and incorporated into the Constitution it would be a refreshing departure from your usual partisan hyperbole.
Good luck with that. He is likely to edit any reply you make so he can make his talking points ad nauseum. He's not interested in a honest discussion or exchange of ideas. But I think you know that already.
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Old 08-24-2019, 04:18 PM
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Default Re: Professor Charles Kesler warns of the 'intoxicating bargain' offered by progressi

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The founders such as Jefferson, Hamilton, and Madison knew that they would be unable to create the liberal social, economic, and political institutions they envisioned because of the resistance of the "conservatives" to those changes. They were pragmatic in attempting to install as much of their ideology in the Constitution as possible and they left it to future generations to overcome the wealth and power of the conservatives over time. They left the United States to the Progressives that could take us towards the fulfillment of their ideology for America.

Yes, that included the ending of the institution of slavery that they all came to oppose when they embraced the ideology they established for America. We're still trying to reach their ideological goal of equality and the "conservatives" continue to fight against that.
Are you saying, then, that the Founders envisioned--and were willing to accept--a great Civil War, in a later generation--which, by its mid-point, came to be about slavery--as a reasonable trade-off, rather than confronting the problem at the time?
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Old 08-25-2019, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: Professor Charles Kesler warns of the 'intoxicating bargain' offered by progressi

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
But their is another perspective that explains how the DOI and later the Constitution led to the outlawing of the institution.
Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
This has nothing to do with the "Resistance" or with the fact that the United States was created as a Republic. It has to do with equality as an unalienable natural right of the person,

Slavery was wrong and that was the problem from the beginning. The DOI didn't create that problem but it did identify it and eventually lead to the abolition of slavery but we still haven't achieved the DOI's objective that "All men (people) are created equal" because White Men still controls our social, economic, and political institutions and those institutions continue to suppress minorities and women in the United States.

White Supremacy that was the basis for slavery when our nation was founded and White Supremacy still exists today.

But let's look at the second ideological criteria that was the basis for our government.
Quote:
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
At no time have all of the "governed" been allowed to "consent" to our government by exercising their right to vote.

In the beginning only white men, sometimes limited to Protestant men, that owned property or paid taxes could vote. This included by citizens and non-citizens that were both a part of the "governed" just so long as they met the condition of white men.

Eventually men of other races were allowed to vote but only if they were citizens. At the same time came the revocation of the non-citizen permanent resident being allowed to vote. So we added one group of the "governed" while taking away another group of the "governed" at the same time.

Eventually women were allowed to vote but only if they were citizens leaving the non-citizen women that were permanent residents, making them also a part of the governed, without the right to vote.

It is interesting that the Constitution in Article I and in the 17 Amendment where it states who are to elect members of Congress both state the "People" and the "People" includes both citizens and non-citizens of this nation.

The reason that non-citizen permanent residents can't vote is because our political institution are still controlled by white men while the non-citizen permanent residents are overwhelmingly non-white people that threaten the control of our political institutions by the white men.

White supremacy controlled who voted and White Supremacy still exists today.
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Old 08-25-2019, 10:36 PM
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Default Re: Professor Charles Kesler warns of the 'intoxicating bargain' offered by progressi

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White Supremacy that was the basis for slavery when our nation was founded and White Supremacy still exists today.
No it wasn't...

It was the desire for cheap-a$$ labor...
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Old 08-25-2019, 10:42 PM
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Default Re: Professor Charles Kesler warns of the 'intoxicating bargain' offered by progressi

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No it wasn't...

It was the desire for cheap-a$$ labor...
You are kidding right? Why do you think there were no Irish slaves?
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Old 08-26-2019, 05:22 AM
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Default Re: Professor Charles Kesler warns of the 'intoxicating bargain' offered by progressi

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You are kidding right? Why do you think there were no Irish slaves?
Because there were no Irish slave traders in Ireland. There were Black slave traders in Africa selling slaves to other slave traders.

See the difference?
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:49 AM
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Default Re: Professor Charles Kesler warns of the 'intoxicating bargain' offered by progressi

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You are kidding right? Why do you think there were no Irish slaves?
Ah but there were, they were called indentured servants. In return for passage to the new world the person agreed to a contract of servitude, in effect becoming a slave for a period of time. Indentured servants were frequently abused and considered subhuman by society at large.

Later the Irish were discriminated against as being only suitable for unskilled work if employable at all. Add Italians, Asians, and of course Jews to the list of non Africans subject to discrimination. There is no denying the discrimination in our history but it is to look at how far we have come to the point where discrimination is illegal and socially unacceptable.
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