Political Wrinkles  

Go Back   Political Wrinkles > General Forum > Opinions & Editorials
Register FAQDonate PW Store PW Trivia Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Opinions & Editorials Discuss Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings. at the General Forum; https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/05/o...bes-metoo.html You can be sure that this weekend at the Golden Globes, Hollywood celebrities, not exactly known for their independent ...

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2018, 08:34 AM
MrLiberty's Avatar
professional curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 30,506
Thanks: 21,953
Thanked 18,609 Times in 11,936 Posts
Default Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/05/o...bes-metoo.html

Quote:
You can be sure that this weekend at the Golden Globes, Hollywood celebrities, not exactly known for their independent thinking, will turn the red carpet into a #MeToo moment replete with designer duds. Many have promised to wear black dresses to protest the stream of allegations against industry moguls and actors. Perhaps Meryl Streep will get grilled — again — about what she knew about Harvey Weinstein. The rest of us will diligently follow along on Twitter, sharing hashtags and suitably pious opprobrium.

But privately, I suspect, many of us, including many longstanding feminists, will be rolling our eyes, having had it with the reflexive and unnuanced sense of outrage that has accompanied this cause from its inception, turning a bona fide moment of moral accountability into a series of ad hoc and sometimes unproven accusations.

For many weeks now, the conversation that has been going on in private about this reckoning is radically different from the public one. This is not a good sign, suggesting the sort of social intimidation that is the underside of a culture of political correctness, such as we are increasingly living in.

The women I know — of all ages — have responded by and large with a mixture of slightly horrified excitement (bordering on titillation) as to who will be the next man accused and overt disbelief.

Publicly, they say the right things, expressing approval and joining in the chorus of voices that applaud the takedown of maleficent characters who prey on vulnerable women in the workplace.

In private it’s a different story. “Grow up, this is real life,” I hear these same feminist friends say. “What ever happened to flirting?” and “What about the women who are the predators?” Some women, including random people I talk to in supermarket lines, have gone so far as to call it an outright witch hunt.

It goes without saying that no one is coming to the defense of heinous sorts, like Kevin Spacey and Matt Lauer. But the trickle-down effect to cases like those of Garrison Keillor, Jonathan Schwartz, Ryan Lizza and Al Franken, in which the accusations are scattered, anonymous or, as far as the public knows, very vague and unspecific, has been troubling.

Perhaps even more troubling is that we seem to be returning to a victimology paradigm for young women, in particular, in which they are perceived to be — and perceive themselves to be — as frail as Victorian housewives.

Consider the fact that the campaign last month against the Met to remove a Balthus painting that shows a young girl in a suggestive light was organized by two young Manhattan feminists. Fortunately, they were unsuccessful. This is the kind of censorship practiced by religious zealots.

What happened to women’s agency? That’s what I find myself wondering as I hear story after story of adult women who helplessly acquiesce to sexual demands. I find it especially curious given that a majority of women I know have been in situations in which men have come on to them — at work or otherwise. They have routinely said, “I’m not interested” or “Get your hands off me right now.” And they’ve taken the risk that comes with it.

The fact that such unwelcome advances persist, and often in the office, is, yes, evidence of sexism and the abusive power of the patriarchy. But I don’t believe that scattershot, life-destroying denunciations are the way to upend it. In our current climate, to be accused is to be convicted. Due process is nowhere to be found.

And what exactly are men being accused of? What is the difference between harassment and assault and “inappropriate conduct”? There is a disturbing lack of clarity about the terms being thrown around and a lack of distinction regarding what the spectrum of objectionable behavior really is. Shouldn’t sexual harassment, for instance, imply a degree of hostility? Is kissing someone in affection, however inappropriately, or showing someone a photo of a nude male torso necessarily predatory behavior?

I think this confusion reflects a deeper ambivalence about how we want and expect people to behave. Expressing sexual interest is inherently messy and, frankly, nonconsensual — one person, typically the man, bites the bullet by expressing interest in the other, typically the woman — whether it happens at work or at a bar. Some are now suggesting that come-ons need to be constricted to a repressive degree. Asking for oral consent before proceeding with a sexual advance seems both innately clumsy and retrograde, like going back to the childhood game of “Mother, May I?” We are witnessing the re-moralization of sex, not via the Judeo-Christian ethos but via a legalistic, corporate consensus.

Stripping sex of eros isn’t the solution. Nor is calling out individual offenders, one by one. We need a broader and more thoroughgoing overhaul, one that begins with the way we bring up our sons and daughters.

These are scary times, for women as well as men. There is an inquisitorial whiff in the air, and my particular fear is that in true American fashion, all subtlety and reflection is being lost. Next we’ll be torching people for the content of their fantasies.
WOW, from the NYT's no less, who'd a thunk it?

I have an acquaintance who was fired from his job because of something that happened over ten years ago. His so called accuser recalled an incident between the two of them and related what happened to a higher up in the company. There were never any charges and the accuser and the man who got fired are still friends. But because of the climate that we live in today this guy got **** canned.

Some of the accusations that I have seen border on the ludicrous, especially when you have women claiming to have been harassed because someone "ogled" them. I do believe we have to many people living the victimhood mentality today and it is destroying relationships and peoples lives just so they can have their 15 minutes of fame.
__________________
Sometimes by losing a battle you find a new way to win the war.

Donald Trump
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MrLiberty For This Useful Post:
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2018, 11:10 AM
Scholar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,461
Thanks: 330
Thanked 1,736 Times in 1,064 Posts
Default Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings.

The real problem is that the pendulum will eventually swing back. And women will find their claims ignored.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to loboloco For This Useful Post:
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2018, 10:48 PM
Joe Shoe's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 5,167
Thanks: 807
Thanked 1,550 Times in 1,055 Posts
Default Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings.

I read this too today, and it's one of the few times I've agreed with the NYTimes. I was like ... ok, what the heck got into the NYTimes today with a moment of reason????
Anyway, great points in this article. As one of the commenters in the article's comments section pointed out it, there is a sort of "sexual McCarthyism" developing.
__________________
What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand???
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2018, 04:55 PM
GottaGo's Avatar
Sanity is overrated.
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Miles to go before I sleep
Posts: 11,772
Thanks: 9,588
Thanked 7,764 Times in 4,970 Posts
Default Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings.

Most women have encountered the office Romeo, and those that actually told him to stop it (variable on the actual phrase used) usually aren't bothered again.

Asking someone out for a drink, is not sexual harassment.

Asking someone out for a date, is not sexual harassment.

Complimenting someone on their attire, is not sexual harassment.

Those who say they fear for their jobs, and acquiesce, have actually accepted the proposal. They have placed the value of their job over their personal values.

If a man (or in some cases, a woman) is persistent and or threatens retaliation, you go up the ladder. Make yourself heard, plain and clear.

It has become a witch hunt... who can they make fall next? True or not, accusations get thrown out, and a possible innocent person's life is devastated.

Seems like the latest hobby for some....
__________________
Your life is the sum total of the choices you make.
If you don't laugh at yourself, a whole bunch of people will volunteer to do it for you
I never lose. I either win, or I learn....
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2018, 05:40 PM
saltwn's Avatar
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Esto perpetua
Posts: 77,077
Thanks: 54,268
Thanked 25,778 Times in 18,364 Posts
Send a message via Yahoo to saltwn
Default Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Most women have encountered the office Romeo, and those that actually told him to stop it (variable on the actual phrase used) usually aren't bothered again.

Asking someone out for a drink, is not sexual harassment.

Asking someone out for a date, is not sexual harassment.

Complimenting someone on their attire, is not sexual harassment.
touching and being suggestive or purposefully annoying is
Those who say they fear for their jobs, and acquiesce, have actually accepted the proposal. They have placed the value of their job over their personal values.
I used to think that
If a man (or in some cases, a woman) is persistent and or threatens retaliation, you go up the ladder. Make yourself heard, plain and clear.
yet people do all that and depending on the company are ignored
It has become a witch hunt... who can they make fall next? True or not, accusations get thrown out, and a possible innocent person's life is devastated.
no. it's just so prevalent no one knew before even women who have now heard tso many others
Seems like the latest hobby for some....
I don't think so; too credible
__________________
Mueller is good at witch hunting. Its raining witches. America is GREAT.

Doreen E
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2018, 09:58 PM
Hairy Jello's Avatar
Deplorable
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 21,422
Thanks: 1,833
Thanked 11,581 Times in 7,229 Posts
Default Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings.

Remember when Meryl Streep called Harvey Weinstein a "god?"

Then again Meryl Streep gave Roman Polanski a standing ovation so that pretty much tells ya how broken Hollywood's moral compass is.
__________________

Not an accurate representation of a white person.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2018, 06:38 AM
GottaGo's Avatar
Sanity is overrated.
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Miles to go before I sleep
Posts: 11,772
Thanks: 9,588
Thanked 7,764 Times in 4,970 Posts
Default Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
I don't think so; too credible
SOME are credible. Others no.

I've never understood the mindset of someone who would continue to work for someone or a company who made them uncomfortable. I've left a job because of a #metoo situation. I removed myself to eliminate the problem, even though it was a decent job, but not worth dealing with the person. The other time, I made myself VERY clear it wasn't happening, and they ceased.

What is going on now, is a witch hunt. That has become obvious to even the most callous of observers.
__________________
Your life is the sum total of the choices you make.
If you don't laugh at yourself, a whole bunch of people will volunteer to do it for you
I never lose. I either win, or I learn....
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to GottaGo For This Useful Post:
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2018, 08:29 AM
Hairy Jello's Avatar
Deplorable
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 21,422
Thanks: 1,833
Thanked 11,581 Times in 7,229 Posts
Default Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings.

Elisabeth Moss is taking a lot of heat (and being laughed at) for her highly hypocritical comments in her acceptance speech at the Golden Globes last night.

For those that don't know Moss is a Scientologist, which is notorious for abuse and covering up sexual abuse within the church.

Twitter of course called Moss out in typical hysterical fashion:

Quote:
What Elisabeth Moss said was amazing. I hope she starts within herself and examines the injustices of Scientology. #GoldenGlobes
Quote:
Let's see what hypocritical thing Elisabeth Moss says about human rights while being an oppressive Scientologist!
Quote:
As I say at every award show: Elisabeth Moss funds and defends an organization that profits off of human trafficking and child abuse. Her pretty words mean nothing.
Quote:
This tweet. There's also the fun fact that Elisabeth Moss is a Scientologist, and they believe in covering up for their members when it comes to sexual assault, and who knows what else. I will never watch the show, but I am interested in reading the book, at least. https://twitter.com/morninggloria/st...82500101513217
Quote:
Nah, not having Elisabeth Moss coming out as some sort of icon for womens' rights when she's a devout scientologist, a religion that abuses and destroys women on a daily basis. #GoldenGlobes
Quote:
Elisabeth Moss winning for Handmaid's Tale, and then giving a speech about injustice and inequality, all while being a proud Scientologist is GOLDEN #GoldenGlobes
Quote:
Elizabeth Moss is a Scientologist, a religion that actively silences women (see: Danny Masterson) while covering up their own faults, and they aggressively go after those who dare speak up against them. But, she's wearing black in support of #TimesUp . So... ??? #GoldenGlobes
Scientologist Elisabeth Moss slammed for 'hypocritical' Golden Globes speech | Fox News

Elisabeth Moss marked her Golden Globe win for Best Actress in a TV Drama by putting her own spin on a quote from Margaret Atwood whose novel inspired Moss' show "The Handmaid's Tale."

Moss thanked Atwood and other women "who were brave enough to speak out against intolerance and injustice" before slightly altering Atwood's words saying, "We no longer live in the blank white spaces at the edge of print. We no longer live in the gaps between the stories. We are the story in print, and we are writing the story ourselves."

The 35-year-old, who practices Scientology, was immediately called out on Twitter for her acceptance speech with many calling Moss a hypocrite for preaching for equality.


Elisabeth Moss is an astonishing actor and deserves her awards, but her outpourings of supposed empathy and solidarity to the #metoo movement don’t quite ring true since she is still a prominent Scientologist - an organisation which silences women more than any other. https://t.co/81HeFNImX2

Moss has had to defend her religion in the past. The former "Mad Men" star is famously hush-hush about her association with the church, responded to a fan's question about "The Handmaid's Tale" and Scientology.

"Question though, does it make you think twice about Scientology? Gilead [the fictional country in the TV show] and Scientology both believe that all outside sources (aka news) are wrong and evil…it’s just very interesting," one fan asked Moss in August.

Moss responded at the time, "That’s actually not true at all about Scientology. Religious freedom and tolerance and understanding the truth and equal rights for every race, religion and creed are extremely important to me. The most important things to me probably. And so Gilead and 'THT' hit me on a very personal level."

The controversial church came under fire late last year when it was revealed that actor Danny Masterson, who is a Scientologist, had been accused of rape by four women and the Church of Scientology was accused of protecting Masterson.

People deeply connected with the church told Fox News members did have knowledge of Masterson's alleged behavior way before the media reports.

Several sources told us that the Church of Scientology systematically covers up misdeeds of its most prominent members — and Masterson, they say, is no exception.

Chris Shelton, a former member of the Church of Scientology and Sea Org from 1987-2012, said the church silences members who want to take complaints to law enforcement.

“The church works to protect the church first,” he told Fox News.

He said the next most important thing to Scientologists is to protect the members of the church and its public image.

“[The Church of Scientology] considers anyone outside the church to be a ‘wog,’ which is a defamatory word describing non-members... It creates an ‘us versus them’ mentality [and tells] members that ‘wogs’ at law enforcement won’t protect them.”

Fox News' Diana Falzone contributed to this report.

__________________

Not an accurate representation of a white person.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Hairy Jello For This Useful Post:
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2018, 09:04 AM
Hairy Jello's Avatar
Deplorable
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 21,422
Thanks: 1,833
Thanked 11,581 Times in 7,229 Posts
Default Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings.

The Golden Globes last night was hosted by Seth Meyers. The entire event was to honor the #metoo thing (most women wore black), and he did his part by busting jokes against those accused of sexual harassment and calling them out by name.

Except Matt Lauer.

Basically Hollywood is against sexual harassment as long as it doesn't involve certain peeps.

Golden Globes viewers slam NBC, 'Today' hosts for no mention of Matt Lauer | Fox News

The topic of sexual harassment in the entertainment industry was the biggest topic at hand at the Golden Globes, but one name that didn’t seem to come up during the night, as the show was broadcast on NBC, was Matt Lauer.

Lauer’s ex-colleagues from the “Today” show conducted interviews with the stars on the red carpet who donned black to protest harassment. Some viewers found the juxtaposition to be awkward.

Meanwhile, during his opening monologue, host Seth Meyers mentioned many of the men in entertainment who had seen their careers crumble following allegations of abuse, but Lauer’s name didn’t come up.

Meyers did call out disgraced movie mogul Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey, who was fired from “House of Cards” after actors accused him of assault.

__________________

Not an accurate representation of a white person.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Hairy Jello For This Useful Post:
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2018, 10:31 AM
Hairy Jello's Avatar
Deplorable
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 21,422
Thanks: 1,833
Thanked 11,581 Times in 7,229 Posts
Default Re: Publicly, We Say #MeToo. Privately, We Have Misgivings.

James Franco won an award at the Golden Globes last night that paid tribute to the #metoo movement.

That's nice, seeing Franco was busted tryin' to get a 17-year-old girl to hook up with him in a hotel room.
__________________

Not an accurate representation of a white person.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Hairy Jello For This Useful Post:
Reply

Tags
#metoo, have, misgivings, privately, publicly, say

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0