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Old 12-29-2017, 11:07 AM
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Thumbs up Government Still Dividing America

I've enjoyed Kent McManigal's writing for some time, since he espouses the same libertarian philosophy that I prefer to the bloated government we currently have. By being born in this country, we are bound by laws and rules that others agreed on without our consent. A system of voluntary interactions rather than government-imposed coercion is more fair, and in this piece Kent describes exactly why the current system isn't working for all and why voluntary interaction is a more just system.

Quote:
As 2017 draws to a close, it is disappointing to see America more divided than at any time since the 1860s. The main cause being government. Almost everyone complains about government, at least sometimes. It’s a natural thing to do.

The reason is, with political governance, one side only wins at the expense of the other side. This leads to a fracturing of society, where the winners and losers — the Right and the Left — hate each other. It really is that bad.
BINGO! This is the problem in a nut shell.

Quote:
Government is collectivism at its worst, so everyone is going to be unhappy over many of its actions, even if they like some things it does.

As a libertarian, I am constantly amused by people who complain about the inevitable results of politicized government, while thinking they can have the parts they like without the parts they don’t like. Sorry, but that’s not the way it’s set up to work. But it could be.

Even if you got exactly the type of governing you want, just about everyone else would be unhappy. If the tables turn so someone else gets exactly the sort of governing they want, you would be the unhappy one. It’s a disastrous system.

This is what happens with one-size-fits-all schemes. The one mandated size actually fits almost no one. Square pegs are hammered into round holes, or round pegs get wedged into square holes; either way, no one is pleased with the result.

This is the result of pretending there can be a right to govern people other than yourself.

There is a reasonable solution: replace violence-based political governance with consumer-controlled governance. This way you, individually, choose whether you want a service, choose whether it is worth the price, choose who to get it from, and if they don’t meet your expectations, you can unilaterally fire them and try something else. Without being told to move to Somalia.

No one else is bound to your choices; they make their own. Your choice in services never denies others the parts for which you have no use. They are perfectly free to choose them. You don’t have to partake in everything, you just have no right to impose your choices on anyone else. It’s the civilized way to live among others.
Government still dividing America - The Eastern New Mexico News
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:47 PM
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Default Re: Government Still Dividing America

It's not the government that divides us. It is a major political party dedicated to resistance over governance abetted by media allies broadcasting negative stories about the "enemy" at an unprecedented rates.
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Old 12-29-2017, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: Government Still Dividing America

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumara View Post
I've enjoyed Kent McManigal's writing for some time, since he espouses the same libertarian philosophy that I prefer to the bloated government we currently have. By being born in this country, we are bound by laws and rules that others agreed on without our consent. A system of voluntary interactions rather than government-imposed coercion is more fair, and in this piece Kent describes exactly why the current system isn't working for all and why voluntary interaction is a more just system.



BINGO! This is the problem in a nut shell.
we are divided for similar reasons to the 1860s but more than that, it's anti government anarchists who savvy politicians use to line their own pockets when they rob us people of our resources and money and health (talking about pollution etc).
websites like breitbart and the heritage foundation, fox news tv, colleges like hillsborough, radio propagandists like limbaugh...those are tearing our country a part. And now of course the tweeting president. but even w/o him, a concerted effort is underway to put us at each others throat while they devisate what our forefathers built.
We the people are the government and we'd better start acting that way.
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Republican pollster Frank Luntz quoted a report and said that 43 percent of immigrants from African countries have a bachelor’s degree or higher, compared with 33 percent of the American population overall.
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https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...el-in-the-u-s-
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Old 12-30-2017, 02:31 PM
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Default Re: Government Still Dividing America

Sadly, our government is operated on the tension energies of basically two competing parties, yes. But we are divided because of eight year of social engineering by a President leading from behind and a DOJ failing to apply the laws of our land with any resemblance of equality.



"Men make history, and not the other way around. In periods where there is no leadership, society stands still. Progress occurs when courageous, skillful leaders seize the opportunity to change things for the better." — Harry S. Truman


After eight years of vacuous leadership, can anyone honestly say we are a better society?
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: Government Still Dividing America

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Quote:
Quote:
Sadly, our government is operated on the tension energies of basically two competing parties, yes
.

because of the saturation of propaganda infused to each party's voters via radio, tv and social media as well as donor created 'news' sites and social media.
Quote:
But we are divided because of eight year of social engineering by a President leading from behind

divided by propaganda grinding that falsehood into the paranoid brains of once decent republicans
Quote:
and a DOJ failing to apply the laws of our land with any resemblance of equality.
you mean the efforts of big business trying to discredit doj efforts to apply law equally
Quote:
"Men make history, and not the other way around. In periods where there is no leadership, society stands still. Progress occurs when courageous, skillful leaders seize the opportunity to change things for the better." — Harry S. Truman
said the man who secretly helped the french to disrupt a government and try to colonize vietnam

After eight years of vacuous leadership, can anyone honestly say we are a better society?
We were certainly and the economy had started to grow. we were freer. that is rapidly changing now with corporation de facto in charge of 'we the people's' government.
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Republican pollster Frank Luntz quoted a report and said that 43 percent of immigrants from African countries have a bachelor’s degree or higher, compared with 33 percent of the American population overall.
“Nigerian-Americans, for instance, have a median household income well above the American average.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...el-in-the-u-s-
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:34 PM
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Default Re: Government Still Dividing America

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We were certainly and the economy had started to grow. we were freer. that is rapidly changing now with corporation de facto in charge of 'we the people's' government.
Sometime Salty,,,; your responses are hilarious.

this time,,,; ALL of them were.

You should do standup comedy.
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Old 12-31-2017, 02:44 AM
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Default Re: Government Still Dividing America

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Sometime Salty,,,; your responses are hilarious.

this time,,,; ALL of them were.

You should do standup comedy.
intelligent people wouldn't laugh
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Republican pollster Frank Luntz quoted a report and said that 43 percent of immigrants from African countries have a bachelor’s degree or higher, compared with 33 percent of the American population overall.
“Nigerian-Americans, for instance, have a median household income well above the American average.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...el-in-the-u-s-
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:30 AM
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Default Re: Government Still Dividing America

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumara View Post
I've enjoyed Kent McManigal's writing for some time, since he espouses the same libertarian philosophy that I prefer to the bloated government we currently have. By being born in this country, we are bound by laws and rules that others agreed on without our consent. A system of voluntary interactions rather than government-imposed coercion is more fair, and in this piece Kent describes exactly why the current system isn't working for all and why voluntary interaction is a more just system.

BINGO! This is the problem in a nut shell.
There's a more fundamental problem and that is that most people that self-identify as "Libertarians" don't actual support the Right of Liberty but instead support a belief in anarchy like Kent McManigal.

Quote:
"Those who want you to doubt that anarchy (self ownership and individual responsibility) is the best, most moral, and ethical way to live among others are asking you to accept that theft, aggression, superstition, and slavery are perhaps better." Kent McManigal Blog banner
Kent's "Hooligan Libertarian" Blog

The Right of Liberty isn't anarchy. The Right of Liberty is the Freedom to Exercise the Natural Rights of the Person and those Rights are highly restricted by Natural Law (i.e. Natural Law is based upon the criteria necessary for the survival of the species).

Kent McManigal is an advocate for "License" and not "Liberty" by his support for anarchy. License is the lawful authority to commit an act and, as noted, Liberty is the authority to exercise a Natural (unalienable) Right and there's a huge difference between the two.

John Locke, generally recognized as the foremost authority on natural rights because he was the first (and perhaps only) person to present the complete logical arguments to establish their existence, addresses liberty in his Second Treatise of Civil Government where he lays out what it is and then he clarifies his statement with "though this be a state of liberty, yet it is not a state of license."

Statutory license can be granted explicitly by the law or by simply not prohibiting an action by the law. The typical constraints imposed on license are based upon an identifiable harm being caused against a person or group of person's. In our legal system this is addressed under the criteria for "standing" in a civil case where the person/people must establish a harm that they personally suffer because of the actions of another person.

This fails to acknowledge that people can violate the Laws of Nature, the foundation for the Rights of the Person, without specifically harming another person. A person does not have a Right to do certain things because those actions violate the Laws of Nature.

A person cannot spoil (pollute) or destroy nature because the unchecked pollution and/or destruction of nature endangers the species. There's a caveat to this because nature has the means to rejuvenate itself. Nature can recycle pollution for example and nature has a restorative ability when it's destroyed but those are limited capabilities. Nature cannot restore that which has completely disappeared and nature can only recycle a limited amount of pollution. As long as mankind doesn't create pollution than exceeds nature's ability to recycled and that mankind doesn't destroy more nature that nature can replace by rejuvenation then mankind is not threatening the survival of our species.

Anarchy is based upon License that, even under the "Libertarian Anarchy" that McManigal apparently advocates, allows people to commit acts that are not limited to their Natural Rights in violation of natural law. It is not "Libertarian" based because it's not based upon the limitations imposed by the Right of Liberty.

McManigal makes an accurate statement followed by a false statement in the following:

Quote:
America more divided than at any time since the 1860s. The main cause being government.
The main cause is the same but it's not the government. The cause is the advocacy for White Protestant Male Supremacy that denies equality and oppresses those that are not White Protestant Male (most evident in the oppression of blacks in America). The government is merely a symptom of the problem where Donald Trump has consistently put forward the agenda of White Protestant Male Supremacy in his actions and policies. Even his "Make American Great Again" slogan is based upon the history of the United States when White Protestant Male Supremacy was in control. Roy Moore, that Trump supported, was more explicit the era in which America was Great because he stated that America was at it's greatest when slavery existed.

The Republican Party has tied itself to Trump's coat tails today and that's why our government is so divided today but that's just a symptom because the division begins with the people that elected Donald Trump.
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:45 AM
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Default Re: Government Still Dividing America

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumara View Post
I've enjoyed Kent McManigal's writing for some time, since he espouses the same libertarian philosophy that I prefer to the bloated government we currently have. By being born in this country, we are bound by laws and rules that others agreed on without our consent. A system of voluntary interactions rather than government-imposed coercion is more fair, and in this piece Kent describes exactly why the current system isn't working for all and why voluntary interaction is a more just system.



BINGO! This is the problem in a nut shell.
Not in a nutshell unless the person is a nutcase. The following is also important to consider.

McManigal, after making several false claims about the problems we face concludes his arguments with a false solution when he states.

Quote:
There is a reasonable solution: replace violence-based political governance with consumer-controlled governance.
Government based upon the consent of the governed is not violence based. The faux Libertarians claim that the powers of government, that can be imposed by force, represent violence but the violence generally originates with the individuals that refuse to comply with the law. Law enforcement is technically limited to the use of force in response to a real or threatened act of aggression by those that resist the authority of law enforcement.

His proposed remedy is "consumer-controlled government" that relies on "market forces" but market forces creates one-sided pressure that is generally unopposed resulting in the oppression of the individual person. The market is the weapon of the "Capitalist" that is the owner of enterprise (not a reference to the supporters of capitalism that are not owners if enterprise) that unopposed routinely violates the "natural right of property" of their employees. The market imposes a constant downward pressure on prices. There's a limitation imposed by enterprise on how low their prices can go.

The price cannot be below the cost of providing the goods or services because it if is then the enterprise will fail. The constant financial loss when the price is below the cost will eventually result in the enterprise ceasing to exist.

That rule does not apply to people because people that aren't paid enough to fund their household costs cannot simply cease to exist. The market can and does often drive the price for labor below the costs imposed on the employee to fund the expenditures of their household. We refer to it as poverty and because the person can't simply cease to exist they must receive a subsidy to compensate for inadequate income they receive for their labor.

The unopposed market cannot be overcome by the individual. It's the Biblical example of David v Golliath and regardless of the Biblical outcome in reality David always loses to Golliath and his army.

We can easily see that the Natural Rights of the Person are violated by McManigal's proposal. Based upon natural law the Natural Right of Property is limited by what the person can use for their support and comfort in life. John Locke, in his arguments for the Natural Right "Of Property" in Chapter 5 of the Second Treatise of Civil government addressed the accumulation of wealth by a person in the following statements:

Quote:
He was only to look, that he used them before they spoiled, else he took more than his share, and robbed others. And indeed it was a foolish thing, as well as dishonest, to hoard up more than he could make use of.

Sect. 51. And thus, I think, it is very easy to conceive, without any difficulty, how labour could at first begin a title of property in the common things of nature, and how the spending it upon our uses bounded it. So that there could then be no reason of quarrelling about title, nor any doubt about the largeness of possession it gave. Right and conveniency went together; for as a man had a right to all he could employ his labour upon, so he had no temptation to labour for more than he could make use of. This left no room for controversy about the title, nor for encroachment on the right of others; what portion a man carved to himself, was easily seen; and it was useless, as well as dishonest, to carve himself too much, or take more than he needed.
The Right of Property is limited by natural law to what the person can actually use in their lifetime. It is useless and dishonest for them to acquire more property than they can use. In his arguments Locke refers to Title but unlike Title as we know it under our laws where Title establishes the legal Right of Possession in Locke's references the Title is merely the recognition of the Right to Possess. There's a world of difference between a Title that establish the legal right to possess regardless of whether the person has the natural right to possess property and Title where the Title the merely reflects the natural right to possess property.

Once again we're addressing "License v Liberty" because our laws of ownership, based upon explicit or implied title, allow ownership of property regardless of whether the person has a Right to Possess the property.

On a final note many faux libertarians merely reflect the Republican ideology of government that embraces minimalistic government but minimalistic government is virtually identical to tyrannical government because it's too small to protect the rights of the people from violation by others in society.

The government must be large enough to protect the Rights of the Person and/or to mitigate the violations of the Rights of the Person. That is not minimalistic government. That's necessary government and it's exactly what Thomas Paine referred to in his often quoted verse from Common Sense.

Quote:
Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamities is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer!
With a minimalistic government the people will suffer the same violations of their Rights that they could expect without any government at all. This is why one of the First Principles of government in the United States addressed "limited government" and instead of defining minimum government it actually establishes that the government must be large enough and powerful enough to protect the unalienable (natural) rights of the people.

Quote:
The First Principle of limited government means that the protection of unalienable rights is the legitimate purpose and limit of government requires the government to be strong enough to fulfill its purpose yet limited to that purpose
Necessary government, not too large, not too small, but just right.

It's the actual violations of the Rights of the People that establishes how large and powerful it must be and it is the delegated responsibility of Congress to determine what actions the government must take to protect the unalienable rights of the people or to mitigate the violations of those rights. Congress determines the "necessary government" and while we might individually disagree we're not the ones that make that determination.

We can condemn the welfare assistance provided to the working poor in America that Congress authorizes but that assistance merely mitigates the poverty that exists because of wealth and income inequality in America. The United States produces far more wealth than is required so that no American should ever live in poverty. Poverty itself. where the household doesn't have enough to provide the basic necessities is a reflection of the violation of their Right of Property when we have a nation that produces four times as much as necessary.

I would agree with those that complain about the "redistribution of wealth" based upon welfare programs but would argue that the way to eliminate the "redistribution" is to change the "distribution of wealth" when it's created. If we have to redistribute wealth it's an indication that we have a problem with the distribution of wealth when it's created. Fix the problem and we can reduce the size of government.

I could also agree with those that claim we spend too much on our military. Even the most basic of logic establishes that since we've been spending the same amount as the next 10 countries in the world that after decades we should have a military so powerful that, if budgeted correctly, we could spend nothing on our military for the next five years. Prior spending establishes that much of an advantage over all other countries.

In any case I don't have a say and you don't have a say in how large our government is. Congress determines that and we can only look to see if it's accomplishing it's role in protecting our rights.
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:55 AM
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Default Re: Government Still Dividing America

An interesting overview of how America has changed. Informative albeit lengthy, it goes back to the Eisenhower years up to the present. Including the Trump Presidency it is worth the time.
How America Changed During Barack Obama?s Presidency | Pew Research Center
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