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Opinions & Editorials Discuss Government Still Dividing America at the General Forum; Originally Posted by saltwn intelligent people wouldn't laugh You might be right there Salty, your responses are in fact sad. ...

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Old 12-31-2017, 09:57 AM
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Default Re: Government Still Dividing America

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
intelligent people wouldn't laugh
You might be right there Salty, your responses are in fact sad.

Perhaps instead of comedy, your talents would be more useful to Anchoring a show on MSNBC where facts don't matter.
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: Government Still Dividing America

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Government based upon the consent of the governed is not violence based.
That sounds nice, but when did you give your consent? Can you give me the date and the circumstances? I never consented to give other people power over me, so did you? And tell the innocent, unarmed people who have been murdered by law enforcement officers that this government is not violence based.

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The faux Libertarians claim that the powers of government, that can be imposed by force, represent violence but the violence generally originates with the individuals that refuse to comply with the law. Law enforcement is technically limited to the use of force in response to a real or threatened act of aggression by those that resist the authority of law enforcement.
Again, the innocent people who have been harmed by thugs in uniform are proof that law enforcement is NOT limited to the use of force in response to a real or threatened act of aggression. The person being given a fine for expired tags, a broken tail light or going a few miles over an arbitrary speed limit that was determined by someone else are not threats to anyone and are not engaging in acts of aggression.

When did the people give this authority to others to control them, tax them, fine them and arrest them for victimless acts? I don't feel bound by agreements made by other people years ago without my consent, just like I don't feel any responsibility to the huge debt politicians have made in the citizens' name.

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His proposed remedy is "consumer-controlled government" that relies on "market forces" but market forces creates one-sided pressure that is generally unopposed resulting in the oppression of the individual person.
False. there are two sides to market forces, not just one.

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The market is the weapon of the "Capitalist" that is the owner of enterprise (not a reference to the supporters of capitalism that are not owners if enterprise) that unopposed routinely violates the "natural right of property" of their employees.
How are employees' property rights threatened?

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We can easily see that the Natural Rights of the Person are violated by McManigal's proposal.
I don't see it as a threat. What John Locke wrote about property rights sounds a lot like wealth envy. If someone accumulates more than they can use in their lifetime, so what? That doesn't mean they've taken that away from someone else, unless they are using the coercive power of government to accumulate by taking from others, such as with subsidies or monopoly power, like with Big Pharma and the AMA.

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With a minimalistic government the people will suffer the same violations of their Rights that they could expect without any government at all. This is why one of the First Principles of government in the United States addressed "limited government" and instead of defining minimum government it actually establishes that the government must be large enough and powerful enough to protect the unalienable (natural) rights of the people.

Necessary government, not too large, not too small, but just right.
And how has that been working out? Not very well.

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It's the actual violations of the Rights of the People that establishes how large and powerful it must be and it is the delegated responsibility of Congress to determine what actions the government must take to protect the unalienable rights of the people or to mitigate the violations of those rights. Congress determines the "necessary government" and while we might individually disagree we're not the ones that make that determination.
That's exactly the problem I have with government - other people making decisions that affect my life, and often decisions I would not make for myself.

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In any case I don't have a say and you don't have a say in how large our government is.
That is the problem! If it was government by our consent, we would have a say.

Kent talks about consumer-based governance, but I think a better description is VOLUNTARY compliance, giving or denying permission for another to violate your rights to property and self-determination because of a document agreed upon by others hundreds of years ago. The limited government defined by the Constitution is terrific in theory, but that is no longer what we have. We have a burdensome, expensive police state that is the largest violator of people's rights than any street gang could be, and that is not something any of us have agreed to.
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Old 01-02-2018, 11:16 AM
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Default Re: Government Still Dividing America

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
we are divided for similar reasons to the 1860s but more than that, it's anti government anarchists who savvy politicians use to line their own pockets when they rob us people of our resources and money and health (talking about pollution etc).
websites like breitbart and the heritage foundation, fox news tv, colleges like hillsborough, radio propagandists like limbaugh...those are tearing our country a part. And now of course the tweeting president. but even w/o him, a concerted effort is underway to put us at each others throat while they devisate what our forefathers built.
We the people are the government and we'd better start acting that way.
Problem is that you don't see it coming from the left side at all.

You mention Hillsdale private college that teaches conservatism, but fail to mention public schools that teach Liberalism..

You also mention 10% of media that is conservative, but fail to mention 90% that is Liberal.

Salty, we would listen to you more if you were not so hyper partisan. You used to be a more pleasant person. I blame the hyper partisan left wing Trump destroying media, or all the hate that has been conjured up.

Please stop falling for all of it Salty, try to find some stuff that makes you feel good OK? Strive to be happy.

Have you read the Desiderata lately? "Go placidly among the noise and confusion"
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:09 AM
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Default Re: Government Still Dividing America

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Originally Posted by Dog Man View Post
Problem is that you don't see it coming from the left side at all.

You mention Hillsdale private college that teaches conservatism, but fail to mention public schools that teach Liberalism..

You also mention 10% of media that is conservative, but fail to mention 90% that is Liberal.

Salty, we would listen to you more if you were not so hyper partisan. You used to be a more pleasant person. I blame the hyper partisan left wing Trump destroying media, or all the hate that has been conjured up.

Please stop falling for all of it Salty, try to find some stuff that makes you feel good OK? Strive to be happy.

Have you read the Desiderata lately? "Go placidly among the noise and confusion"
I see left wing propaganda every day, mostly from social media but also msnbc.
by degrees msnbc has a way to go imho to match the fox cult driven media but that's only opinion.
Elsewhere I see the New York Times and Washington Post doing some of their best investigative reporting since Watergate. And many, many respectable journalists are digging up facts and pointing to the truth day in and day out.
The Mercers and Koch family spread discord through their media of chaos built on lies and half truths to make the more gullible hate his fellow American.
You might point toward Soros to which I say he is a contributor to causes and candidates he likes but doesn't have the network of conspiracy manufacturers that the right does, including and importantly am radio.
They are basically the JOhn Birch Society on steroids with an army.
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