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Opinions & Editorials Discuss "Why I Left the Left" at the General Forum; "Protection of the life of the mother as an excuse for an abortion is a smoke screen. In my 36 ...

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 12-10-2017, 11:15 PM
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Default Re: "Why I Left the Left"

"Protection of the life of the mother as an excuse for an abortion is a smoke screen. In my 36 years of pediatric surgery, I have never known of one instance where the child had to be aborted to save the mother's life. If toward the end of the pregnancy complications arise that threaten the mother's health, the doctor will induce labor or perform a Caesarean section. His intention is to save the life of both the mother and the baby. The baby's life is never willfully destroyed because the mother's life is in danger."

-C. Everett Koop, M.D., former U.S. Surgeon General
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Old 12-10-2017, 11:44 PM
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Default Re: "Why I Left the Left"

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Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
so why wasn't the law changed to do just "necessary" abortions Saltwn?
that is the question that underlies all arguments about Roe vs Wade. My answer is that the lawyers were wanting to win a "landmark" case. And the public was not fully informed. Or at least I wasn't till I delved deeper into the new law. R v W is a decision based on privacy.
All talk about morality (religious or otherwise) was left out of that suit and that decision. SC wanted to deal with the heinous prevention of doctors doing their job. So they chose this pos case. I am not pleased. I don't believe many are.

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It was changed "bt statesmen to do nearly ANY abortion for UNnecesary reasons.

I'll vote TODAY to limit abortions to "necessary" ie the life of the mother abortions.
will you?
yes
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I suspect not. your argument is pretty much a hypocritical a straw man. you don't want "the state" to tell a doctor what to do but you have no problem with "the state" telling a Nun, a baker, a photographer and florist what to do.

I have to say you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here.
I love God but I know there is a bible passage that says render unto Caesar. To me that is not just about taxes. It's about a society that can exist within a pagan or non religious one-and survive. As opposed to forcing one's religion down so many throats you make yourself and your faith a pariah


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I can think of plenty. abortion for one. wife beating, stealing from blind man. I'm keeping it PG here. But seriously saltwn if sitting through a sermon is the most "unchristian" thing you can think of well OK we disagree.
better to just give the food immediately. the homeless know who gives it. they will be more impressed if not sweating nauseous in the sun while someone waxes poetic on Ruth.
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but even Jesus preached 1st and THEN gave out food. But i guess that's different.
yes that is different. those people came to hear not to eat. he took pity on them.

and that's where the final conflict comes in. Do Christians obey God or civil law.

Slavery was "civil law", Jim Crow laws were "civil law", Japanese internment camps were "civil law", Killing native Americans if they gather in groups larger than 5 was "civil law". And with each law religious people had to decide if they were going to obey them or what they understood to be be God's laws.

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Civil laws are not God, and they are not always right.
we must live in society by civil laws. I understand abortion protesters. but not a nun interfering in someone's health. it equates to the old seventh day adventists who used to refuse transfusions for their children. you do not know why any woman takes birth control pills. nor is it your or my business. people take them to treat cysts, to regulate and reduce painful periods and to prevent babies.
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Old 12-10-2017, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: "Why I Left the Left"

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Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
"Protection of the life of the mother as an excuse for an abortion is a smoke screen. In my 36 years of pediatric surgery, I have never known of one instance where the child had to be aborted to save the mother's life. If toward the end of the pregnancy complications arise that threaten the mother's health, the doctor will induce labor or perform a Caesarean section. His intention is to save the life of both the mother and the baby. The baby's life is never willfully destroyed because the mother's life is in danger."

-C. Everett Koop, M.D., former U.S. Surgeon General
well he was not all knoweing
turns out that in texas even if a baby died in the womb doctors would not abort it. a friend of mine became sterile that way. they never could get pregnant after hers died at 6 mos gestation.
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:07 AM
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Default Re: "Why I Left the Left"

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
Looks like their parting was amicable and Dave credits TYT with introducing him to the craft:

then it looks like somewhere along the line, he started building a career on criticizing his old employers for things they hadn't actually done:
In fact Ana here is being honest, Cenk disagrees with her and they are having a discussion.

Sweet way to reap the benefits of all someone else's hard work.

Plus there have been many wanna be youtube channel take downs; the latest being Same Seder fired from MSNBC (as a guest talker) because of a rival's insane shenanigans, then rehired when MSNBC saw the folly of their ways.
Rubin parted ways with TYT as a normal course after a few years. I think one of the signal events in that decision was the Sam Harris appearance on Bill Maher and the controversy that it stirred up on the left. ( He said that "Islam is the mother load of bad ideas") The obvious schism was revealed and the many lefties that were aware of this took sides. Sam Harris, who was being attacked with the same labels reserved for conservatives, sat down for a 3 hr interview with Cenk to defend his position. Life long liberals saw the craziness and blind spots of "progressive-ism" and said "no way". Rubin and others are positioned closer to what he calls a "new center".
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:47 AM
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Default Re: "Why I Left the Left"

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
well he was not all knoweing
turns out that in texas even if a baby died in the womb doctors would not abort it. a friend of mine became sterile that way. they never could get pregnant after hers died at 6 mos gestation.
How do you abort a baby that is already dead? Do you mean the doctors wouldn't induce labor after the baby had died?
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:42 PM
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Default Re: "Why I Left the Left"

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How do you abort a baby that is already dead? Do you mean the doctors wouldn't induce labor after the baby had died?
that's what i thinking. It just sounds like a piss poor Dr. to me.
but I suppose a dr could be SO afraid of not being legally accused of aborting a baby. But on the other hand it seems to me the whole HOSPITAL would back up a clear claim of a child who died in the womb that needed to be removed. It's not that uncommon, something similar happened to my sister-in-law, where the baby died and was removed.
and today with ultra sounds clearly showing the children alive in the womb or not it'd make no sense at all to fear.

Sadly it just sounds like she was seeing a quack.
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Old 12-12-2017, 01:25 AM
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Default Re: "Why I Left the Left"

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Originally Posted by Zenock View Post
How do you abort a baby that is already dead? Do you mean the doctors wouldn't induce labor after the baby had died?
yes or c section or whatever the process would have been. she did go into labor at about 9 mos. and had this corpse I guess. an infection had set up and ended up affecting pregnancy for the future. the doctor had said there was a slim chance she could get pregnant.
I remember her husband one morning at our old coffee hang out quietly telling me how every month for years she would be hopeful and every month she cried. one day he held her and told her it didn't matter they would be each others kids and take real good care of each other.
But it was in the time period I knew them that the abortion suit was news.
So I had no idea till years later what the ruling was based on. a cop out imho. but then privacy is precious.


I still think stand alone clinics are absurd unless its for cosmetic surgery or some other benign event. certainly not for a pregnant woman with the myriad of things that can go wrong, be misinterpreted, the medical condition of the mother.

its in the doctors purview. a gynecological doctor in good standing who routinely cares for a wide spectrum of female conditions including birth.
Im pretty sure I will always feel this way.
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Old 12-12-2017, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: "Why I Left the Left"

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wonder View Post
that's what i thinking. It just sounds like a piss poor Dr. to me.
but I suppose a dr could be SO afraid of not being legally accused of aborting a baby. But on the other hand it seems to me the whole HOSPITAL would back up a clear claim of a child who died in the womb that needed to be removed. It's not that uncommon, something similar happened to my sister-in-law, where the baby died and was removed.
and today with ultra sounds clearly showing the children alive in the womb or not it'd make no sense at all to fear.

Sadly it just sounds like she was seeing a quack.
Texas.
and there were other states the same way. before rvw

I believe the general public (women at least) thought rvw a good thing because doctors were often afraid of losing their license.

also read my last post for my thoughts on rvw
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Old 12-12-2017, 06:57 AM
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Default Re: "Why I Left the Left"

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
I love God but I know there is a bible passage that says render unto Caesar. To me that is not just about taxes. It's about a society that can exist within a pagan or non religious one-and survive. As opposed to forcing one's religion down so many throats you make yourself and your faith a pariah
The passage you refer to is Mathew 22:21 and says "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's".

In this passage, Jesus was saying to obey the law and pay your taxes. However, he was not advocating that it meant to disobey God in doing so.

As to you assertion that we could live in a non religious society, that is the antithesis of Gods teachings. We should strive to spread God's word in all area's of our lives and honor him in our deeds. To turn our backs on God to coexist within society is to dishonor him.
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Old 12-12-2017, 09:11 AM
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Default Re: "Why I Left the Left"

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Originally Posted by GetAClue View Post
The passage you refer to is Mathew 22:21 and says "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's".

In this passage, Jesus was saying to obey the law and pay your taxes. However, he was not advocating that it meant to disobey God in doing so.

As to you assertion that we could live in a non religious society, that is the antithesis of Gods teachings. We should strive to spread God's word in all area's of our lives and honor him in our deeds. To turn our backs on God to coexist within society is to dishonor him.
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