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Old 08-25-2017, 09:23 AM
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Default The illegality of trumpís afghanistan war

Although I agree with many of his policies, I was disgusted that Trump plans to send even more soldiers to Afghanistan. We have no legitimate reason to have a military presence in Afghanistan. Soldiers are not "fighting for our freedom" over there, a common mantra mindlessly parrotted by the ignorant. Our freedom has nothing to do with any country but our own. This piece spells out exactly why this war (and many others our nation has engaged in) is illegal.

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When President Trump attributed his flip-flop on Afghanistan to his team of military generals , who informed him that a withdrawal from Americaís 16-year war would leave a ďhavenĒ for terrorists, I couldnít help but think of former presidential candidate George Romney during the Vietnam War. After opposing the war, Romney traveled to Vietnam and returned with the same flip-flop mindset that Trump has experienced. Like Trump, Romney blamed it on the generals, who, he said, had ďbrainwashedĒ him into supporting the war. Romneyís brainwashing, however, wasnít permanent, as Romney later returned to an antiwar position. So maybe thereís hope that the same thing will happen to Trump.

There is one important point, however, that we must continue to emphasize, even though it is continuously ignored by the Washington establishment: the illegality of Trumpís War (and Bushís and Obamaís Wars before him), given that there is no congressional declaration of war.

When the U.S. Constitution called the federal government into existence, it became the higher law that controls the actions of federal officials. Just as we are expected to comply with their laws, they are expected to comply with our law.

Under the Constitution, the president is legally barred from waging war without a congressional declaration of war. Whether the nation goes to war is the responsibility of Congress, not the president. If Congress declares war, then it is the job of the president to wage it. But under the law ó the law of the Constitution ó if Congress does not declare war, the president is barred from waging war.

That makes Trumpís War in Afghanistan illegal under our form of government.

Yes, I know, U.S. presidents have ignored that provision of the U.S. Constitution ever since the U.S. government was converted into a national-security state after World War II. The Korean War. The Vietnam War. The war on Cuba. The wars on Panama and Grenada. The war on Iraq. The war on Afghanistan. The war on Syria. The war on Libya. The list of illegal U.S. wars goes on and on.

Nonetheless, the point remains: All of these wars were ó and are ó illegal under our form of government. Trump is just the latest in a line of presidents who is waging illegal wars.
https://www.fff.org/2017/08/24/illeg...ghanistan-war/
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:16 AM
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Default Re: The illegality of trumpís afghanistan war

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Originally Posted by Lumara View Post
Although I agree with many of his policies, I was disgusted that Trump plans to send even more soldiers to Afghanistan. We have no legitimate reason to have a military presence in Afghanistan. Soldiers are not "fighting for our freedom" over there, a common mantra mindlessly parrotted by the ignorant. Our freedom has nothing to do with any country but our own. This piece spells out exactly why this war (and many others our nation has engaged in) is illegal.
With respect, I must disagree.

First, it is not Trump's war in Afghanistan. It is GW Bush's. And subsequently Obama's because he called it our "Just War" in the Middle east.

Secondly we are fighting for our freedom there. Not from oppression but from the threat of terror attacks. You may remember the Taliban , which still operates in good health there as well as in neighboring Pakistan, planned and executed their 9/11 assault on our country back in 2001.

Thirdly, this new initiative is not a invasion of troops like we saw in 2002 by the Bush43 but are a re-direction of effort, not to stabilize and build, but to "destroy the enemy ie,,,; the Taliban.

The restraining "rules of engagement" of President Obama are now removed. So with the pause button off perhaps our military can stop treading water in the shark tank, and the 17 year old "war" will come to an end.

I fear history will remember this war as President Trump's war just as many Americans blame Nixon for the fruitless ending of the Vietnam conflict. That review is inevitable. But I pray we do not treat the returning men and women, who followed orders and did their duty, the way we treated those returning from 'Nam.

But, in a nation that tolerates hecklers at funerals, that mendacity is also inevitable.

I also worry that the efforts to eliminate the Taliban threat will include operations in Pakistan negatively effecting our relationship with that country and it's big friend China. But perhaps changing our relationship with India, a far more stabile and civilized nation, more positively.

Finally, I disagree with the OP article. Once again, I believe elitists attempt to confuse and conflate the public. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were legal actions authorized by the US Congress. The Taliban, who attacked us, is not a nation state. Pursuit of them requires authorization of resources, but not a declaration of war. Saddam violated his agreements, made at the end of the First Gulf War. It's approval, again, allowed by Congressional authorization of action and resources, not a declaration of "War."
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:32 AM
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Default Re: The illegality of trumpís afghanistan war

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Secondly we are fighting for our freedom there. Not from oppression but from the threat of terror attacks. You may remember the Taliban , which still operates in good health there as well as in neighboring Pakistan, planned and executed their 9/11 assault on our country back in 2001.
That's where I'm at on this...

We are fighting so the Taliban doesn't take over the government and use their resources (although somewhat limited) to export their brand of terrorism...Or, at the very least, be used as a safe haven to terrorist groups as what happened in Iraq when Obama pulled US forces out...

Trump's own words in his Afghan speech...

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I arrived at three fundamental conclusion about Americaís core interests in Afghanistan. First, our nation must seek an honorable and enduring outcome worthy of the tremendous sacrifices that have been made, especially the sacrifices of lives. The men and women who serve our nation in combat deserve a plan for victory. They deserve the tools they need and the trust they have earned to fight and to win.

Second, the consequences of a rapid exit are both predictable and unacceptable. 9/11, the worst terrorist attack in our history, was planned and directed from Afghanistan because that country was ruled by a government that gave comfort and shelter to terrorists.

A hasty withdrawal would create a vacuum for terrorists, including ISIS and Al Qaeda, would instantly fill just as happened before Sept. 11. And as we know, in 2011, America hastily and mistakenly withdrew from Iraq. As a result, our hard-won gains slipped back into the hands of terrorist enemies. Our soldiers watched as cities they had fought for and bled to liberate, and won, were occupied by a terrorist group called ISIS. The vacuum we created by leaving too soon gave safe haven for ISIS to spread, to grow, recruit and launch attacks. We cannot repeat in Afghanistan the mistake our leaders made in Iraq.
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:35 AM
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Default Re: The illegality of trumpís afghanistan war

As far as there being no congressional declaration of war, there hasn't been one since World War II...

...ALSO, Congress has allocated money for the war (and every war since WWII)...That is consent...It would be absurd to say that Congress made no declaration so it's illegal, but that same Congress repeatedly passes legislation that pays for it...
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:39 AM
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Default Re: The illegality of trumpís afghanistan war

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As far as there being no congressional declaration of war, there hasn't been one since World War II...

...ALSO, Congress has allocated money for the war (and every war since WWII)...That is consent...It would be absurd to say that Congress made no declaration so it's illegal, but that same Congress repeatedly passes legislation that pays for it...
As one of the largest and most wealthy nations in the world, the USA will always have covetous enemies. They may not always be nation states. But the threat to our "freedom," is omnipresent.
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Old 08-25-2017, 12:22 PM
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Default Re: The illegality of trumpís afghanistan war

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As one of the largest and most wealthy nations in the world, the USA will always have covetous enemies. They may not always be nation states. But the threat to our "freedom," is omnipresent.
If Afghanistan really is a threat to our national security we should let it rip. Fire up our economy and our military and destroy every single threat and leave no threats bshind. Then come home. Right now we are keeping the military industral complex humming. Economies win wars, Afghanistan's economy is probably about the size of Guam or something. In short I dont believe we need to be there. The kid I ran out of my yard when he was 5, his family has been family friends like going on vacations and stuff for tbe last 20 years and went in tbe USMC on the buddy plan with my son got blown up 2 weeks ago by an IED. It didnt kill him, he will keep all his extremities and be a bit uglier, but he did lose an eye. He got back stateside last week.

I believe the way we war since WWII is completely ****ed up.
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Geez surly, are you that blind or just that dumb.
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Old 08-25-2017, 01:35 PM
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Default Re: The illegality of trumpís afghanistan war

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If Afghanistan really is a threat to our national security we should let it rip. Fire up our economy and our military and destroy every single threat and leave no threats bshind. Then come home. Right now we are keeping the military industral complex humming.
Exactly! We haven't accomplished anything by our presence there for many years, so sending more troops without a legal declaration of war and a definitive plan to win is just a waste of lives and resources. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and and expecting different results, and sending more troops fits that definition.

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I believe the way we war since WWII is completely ****ed up.
Agreed.
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Old 08-25-2017, 02:05 PM
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Default Re: The illegality of trumpís afghanistan war

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Exactly! We haven't accomplished anything by our presence there for many years, so sending more troops without a legal declaration of war and a definitive plan to win is just a waste of lives and resources. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and and expecting different results, and sending more troops fits that definition.



Agreed.
Again, we do not need a Congressional declaration of war. One would think dropping a MOAB makes our intentions clear.
What we do have is a declaration by our nation's President that we will accomplish the mission ( which now has a description), find and subdue the enemy (which now has a name) and leave.

Something missing from the last two Presidents.

Whether or not that actually happens remains to be seen. Trump has three years before his mandate passes before the population for review. If he remains on track and target, this could be over in less than two. In any case, I believe it is better than the lingering malaise of strategic patience.

We shall see
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Old 08-25-2017, 02:27 PM
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Default Re: The illegality of trumpís afghanistan war

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Originally Posted by Surly View Post
If Afghanistan really is a threat to our national security we should let it rip. Fire up our economy and our military and destroy every single threat and leave no threats bshind. Then come home. Right now we are keeping the military industral complex humming. Economies win wars, Afghanistan's economy is probably about the size of Guam or something. In short I dont believe we need to be there. The kid I ran out of my yard when he was 5, his family has been family friends like going on vacations and stuff for tbe last 20 years and went in tbe USMC on the buddy plan with my son got blown up 2 weeks ago by an IED. It didnt kill him, he will keep all his extremities and be a bit uglier, but he did lose an eye. He got back stateside last week.

I believe the way we war since WWII is completely ****ed up.
We can apply the same logic to PRNK or Syria, or Yemen, or Iran.

A snake in the woods is not a threat to the house. But it may pose a threat to the children in the house. Once it enters the hen house or the barn, it poses a real threat. One can hope it never enters the home, or kill it in the hen house, or go into the woods and wipe out it and it's relatives.

The latter is the most dangerous but is the only one of those choices which guarantees the safety of the children. American Men and women volunteer daily to do such dangerous work, here and abroad. Sorry for your friends experience, but sadly, it comes with the honor of doing that duty.

Using his experience to deflect and vilify the need for such honorable service, does no service to your friend and his comrades. Our military, sadly, does not exist for parades.
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Old 08-25-2017, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: The illegality of trumpís afghanistan war

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Again, we do not need a Congressional declaration of war.
War Powers. Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 of the U.S. Constitution grants Congress the power to declare war. The President, meanwhile, derives the power to direct the military after a Congressional declaration of war from Article II, Section 2, which names the President Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces.

It is clear that the president does not legally have the power to direct the military to invade other countries without a declaration of war from Congress. Just because this part of the Constitution has been ignored for years, doesn't suddenly make it legal for any president to unilaterally send the military to bomb other countries.
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