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Opinions & Editorials Discuss 7 W&L students demand removal of Confederate flags, decry view of Lee's legacy at the General Forum; Originally Posted by Oftencold Sorry, the revision was the myth that there was a civil war, and that's an absurdity. ...

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Old 04-29-2014, 08:59 AM
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Default Re: 7 W&L students demand removal of Confederate flags, decry view of Lee's legacy

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Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
Sorry, the revision was the myth that there was a civil war, and that's an absurdity. People who think otherwise are invited to explain the Confederacy's plans for the governance of Massachusetts, Vermont, Maine and New Jersey, or starters, since such initiatives would be required for there to have been a "civil war." Such nonsense. I wish more of my countrymen had the courage to face up to what the War of Northern Aggression actually was, a colossal act of barbarous group stupidity leavened with individuals and acts of nobility, and commemorated with a rich, lustrous varnish of lies.

Please don't tell me that I shouldn't correct people when they use the term "civil war," for what was no such thing.
I put in the caution, simply because knew you would come back with that stupid War of Northern Aggression comment. Every legitimate historian in the world calls it the American Civil War, but cling to your mistaken beliefs if you want to, nobody else supports the agenda you propose here.

I don't know how many times you have to be corrected historically regarding the American Civil War, based upon the fact that every state in the Federal Union, never became a state until such time as they actually joined the Federal Union, under the United States Constitution, the law of the land. 660,000 are dead because of the mistaken and illegal idea that certain states had the right to render that Federal Union apart, and destroy America and maintain the inhuman bondage system of slavery. But, John C. Calhoun would be proud of you, and he was grossly mistaken in his ideas also....STFN
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Old 04-29-2014, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: 7 W&L students demand removal of Confederate flags, decry view of Lee's legacy

These students knew the history or the college and toured the campus before starting there. They need to shut up or move down the road to a school that does not offend them.
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Old 04-29-2014, 09:28 PM
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Post Re: 7 W&L students demand removal of Confederate flags, decry view of Lee's legacy

These students have just as much right to insist on change as other students have to insist on not changing.

Or perhaps the sentiment being expressed by many here is that if you hang out with dogs don't be surprised when they have fleas...
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Old 04-29-2014, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: 7 W&L students demand removal of Confederate flags, decry view of Lee's legacy

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
These students have just as much right to insist on change as other students have to insist on not changing.

Or perhaps the sentiment being expressed by many here is that if you hang out with dogs don't be surprised when they have fleas...
yes I think that's more like it.
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Old 04-29-2014, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: 7 W&L students demand removal of Confederate flags, decry view of Lee's legacy

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Originally Posted by STFAN View Post
I put in the caution, simply because knew you would come back with that stupid War of Northern Aggression comment. Every legitimate historian in the world calls it the American Civil War, but cling to your mistaken beliefs if you want to, nobody else supports the agenda you propose here.

I don't know how many times you have to be corrected historically regarding the American Civil War, based upon the fact that every state in the Federal Union, never became a state until such time as they actually joined the Federal Union, under the United States Constitution, the law of the land. 660,000 are dead because of the mistaken and illegal idea that certain states had the right to render that Federal Union apart, and destroy America and maintain the inhuman bondage system of slavery. But, John C. Calhoun would be proud of you, and he was grossly mistaken in his ideas also....STFN
I understand. A long time ago I was similarly deceived by the lies and myth.

I suggest that you begin by looking for the numerous essays written on the topic, often by historians, pointing out the the War For Southern Independence was by no means a civil war. I've found it profitable to peruse British sources. You ought really to review the definition of a civil war as well. Calling the WoNA a "civil war" is like calling a canoe a cart.

Other aspects of the myth our ancestors concocted to assuage their consciences is the nonsense of Lincoln abolishing slavery and becoming thereby "the Great Liberator." As President Lincoln had no power to end Slavery in America. People need to understand that. And the reason is that the tyrant Lincoln is the justification by precedent for any president to do almost anything at all if he feels that the ends justify the means.
The trick that I find works best, it to read the history of the War Between the States as though you were reading the history of somebody else's country, and with a firm awareness of the stated justifications for the American Revolution and the United States Constitution.

And once again I must stress, that the country was founded on the idea the secession was and will always be an unalienable right. Statements to the contrary by American officials are therefore inherently despotic, and it matters not a jot nor dittle if such offal is asserted by the President, the Congress, and the Supreme Court in unanimity.
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Old 04-29-2014, 11:17 PM
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Default Re: 7 W&L students demand removal of Confederate flags, decry view of Lee's legacy

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
These students have just as much right to insist on change as other students have to insist on not changing.

Or perhaps the sentiment being expressed by many here is that if you hang out with dogs don't be surprised when they have fleas...
And cleverer, more fictional and more useful people have the right to tell the twits that they spoiled little are idiots who grew up watching too much Opra and who ought to keep quiet until they have something useful to say, probably in the distant future.

And then they should be ignored.
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Old 04-30-2014, 06:35 AM
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Default Re: 7 W&L students demand removal of Confederate flags, decry view of Lee's legacy

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Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
I understand. A long time ago I was similarly deceived by the lies and myth.

I suggest that you begin by looking for the numerous essays written on the topic, often by historians, pointing out the the War For Southern Independence was by no means a civil war. I've found it profitable to peruse British sources. You ought really to review the definition of a civil war as well. Calling the WoNA a "civil war" is like calling a canoe a cart.

Other aspects of the myth our ancestors concocted to assuage their consciences is the nonsense of Lincoln abolishing slavery and becoming thereby "the Great Liberator." As President Lincoln had no power to end Slavery in America. People need to understand that. And the reason is that the tyrant Lincoln is the justification by precedent for any president to do almost anything at all if he feels that the ends justify the means.
The trick that I find works best, it to read the history of the War Between the States as though you were reading the history of somebody else's country, and with a firm awareness of the stated justifications for the American Revolution and the United States Constitution.

And once again I must stress, that the country was founded on the idea the secession was and will always be an unalienable right. Statements to the contrary by American officials are therefore inherently despotic, and it matters not a jot nor dittle if such offal is asserted by the President, the Congress, and the Supreme Court in unanimity.
President Lincoln took office with half of the country in revolt (not secession which is illegal). The British took no part in the American Civil War, in fact, despite the steadfast hope of the Southern confederacy, they refused to acknowledge them as a country, as did every other country in the world. Nobody wanted to get involved with the United States at war with itself (BTW, that means, Civil War). Because we were at war, and half of the country was not acknowledging their responsibility to obey the Federal government laws, as they agreed to when they joined the Federal Union, Lincoln had, and used, unprecedented war powers in taking the south to task on the issue, in a war in which they started themselves. Lincoln considered their cause illegal because they never were states anyways until the time they joined our Federal Union, and had no right to attempt to dismantle them. I will go with the better mind of Mr. Lincoln and America's historians, than your contentions, which have no basis in fact, perhaps theory, but 660,000 dead already has sealed the deal for all time.

Lincoln threatened to burn Baltimore to the ground if the southern sympathizers in that city didn't stop throwing rocks and taking pop shots at Federal troops changing trains for Washington City there. He send General Butler there, and also to Annapolis, Maryland, to force that state's legislature to pass a Federal support bill, keeping Maryland in the Union throughout the war. Only one battle was fought on Maryland soil, Antietam Creek, and it was a draw, during Lee's first invasion of the north in 1862. Lincoln used that particular draw, as the Union army forced Lee back across the Potomac River into Virginia, as a "victory" and issued his famous Emancipation Proclamation, which only freed the slaves in the states in revolt against the Federal Union, and not the border states, some northern ones, some southern ones, which maintained slavery, until such time as Congress passed the 13th Amendment to the Constitution.

Secession has no basis in legality in American law, our Declaration of Independence is a grievance letter from American colonists to England's King George I, advising him of the reason(s) they were separating themselves and essentially going to war, for their own independence. Numerous southern sympathizers have used that same Declaration as a basis for the "legality" of secession, something the Southern states threatened to do from the moment the Constitution was ratified creating a more perfect Federal Union, until they went "stupid in the head" and actually decided to fight the merchant, industrial, hugely populous Northern states in a war, when they didn't have a standing army, navy or even one armament's factory below the Mason-Dixon line. Their idea was to simply hold on, and allow the North to attempt invasion, and in the American Civil War (states fighting states, like North Vietnam fighting South Vietnam, or North Korea fighting South Korea, or Syrian loyalists of President Assad fighting independent Syrians for control of that county). Well - you must have got the idea by now.

Even so, whatever your view on the topic is, it is invalid, was rendered invalid except in theory for drawing room discussion's by President Lincoln, who rightfully warned the Southern states against rebellion and starting a war. General Scott came up with the "Anaconda Plan" which squeezed the South, and the Union armies conquered more territory in the American Civil War, than any army in history did. The south's "hold" strategy nearly worked, with the northern population becoming tired of the bloodletting of the war, but the huge Irish, German and Italian immigrant movement into America during the 1860's, many who joined the Union Army, guaranteed the south would fail, as Lincoln predicted.

Had the south succeeded, secession would be legal, the north and south would have been permanently at each others throats over the issue of slavery, the West would have seceded, Florida and Texas and probably Louisiana, with the port of New Orleans, would each have become separate countries, the entire American continent would have become fragmented, and the British, French and Spain all would have moved back into the New World to reestablish order and control, and America, as we know it today, wouldn't exist. Such was the narrow minded, shortsighted view of the Southern confederacy rebels in the 1860's. From the position of history now, they were and always will be wrong.....STFN
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:07 AM
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Default Re: 7 W&L students demand removal of Confederate flags, decry view of Lee's legacy

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President Lincoln took office with half of the country in revolt (not secession which is illegal). The British took no part in the American Civil War, in fact, despite the steadfast hope of the Southern confederacy, they refused to acknowledge them as a country, as did every other country in the world. Nobody wanted to get involved with the United States at war with itself (BTW, that means, Civil War). Because we were at war, and half of the country was not acknowledging their responsibility to obey the Federal government laws, as they agreed to when they joined the Federal Union, Lincoln had, and used, unprecedented war powers in taking the south to task on the issue, in a war in which they started themselves. Lincoln considered their cause illegal because they never were states anyways until the time they joined our Federal Union, and had no right to attempt to dismantle them. I will go with the better mind of Mr. Lincoln and America's historians, than your contentions, which have no basis in fact, perhaps theory, but 660,000 dead already has sealed the deal for all time.

Lincoln threatened to burn Baltimore to the ground if the southern sympathizers in that city didn't stop throwing rocks and taking pop shots at Federal troops changing trains for Washington City there. He send General Butler there, and also to Annapolis, Maryland, to force that state's legislature to pass a Federal support bill, keeping Maryland in the Union throughout the war. Only one battle was fought on Maryland soil, Antietam Creek, and it was a draw, during Lee's first invasion of the north in 1862. Lincoln used that particular draw, as the Union army forced Lee back across the Potomac River into Virginia, as a "victory" and issued his famous Emancipation Proclamation, which only freed the slaves in the states in revolt against the Federal Union, and not the border states, some northern ones, some southern ones, which maintained slavery, until such time as Congress passed the 13th Amendment to the Constitution.

Secession has no basis in legality in American law, our Declaration of Independence is a grievance letter from American colonists to England's King George I, advising him of the reason(s) they were separating themselves and essentially going to war, for their own independence. Numerous southern sympathizers have used that same Declaration as a basis for the "legality" of secession, something the Southern states threatened to do from the moment the Constitution was ratified creating a more perfect Federal Union, until they went "stupid in the head" and actually decided to fight the merchant, industrial, hugely populous Northern states in a war, when they didn't have a standing army, navy or even one armament's factory below the Mason-Dixon line. Their idea was to simply hold on, and allow the North to attempt invasion, and in the American Civil War (states fighting states, like North Vietnam fighting South Vietnam, or North Korea fighting South Korea, or Syrian loyalists of President Assad fighting independent Syrians for control of that county). Well - you must have got the idea by now.

Even so, whatever your view on the topic is, it is invalid, was rendered invalid except in theory for drawing room discussion's by President Lincoln, who rightfully warned the Southern states against rebellion and starting a war. General Scott came up with the "Anaconda Plan" which squeezed the South, and the Union armies conquered more territory in the American Civil War, than any army in history did. The south's "hold" strategy nearly worked, with the northern population becoming tired of the bloodletting of the war, but the huge Irish, German and Italian immigrant movement into America during the 1860's, many who joined the Union Army, guaranteed the south would fail, as Lincoln predicted.

Had the south succeeded, secession would be legal, the north and south would have been permanently at each others throats over the issue of slavery, the West would have seceded, Florida and Texas and probably Louisiana, with the port of New Orleans, would each have become separate countries, the entire American continent would have become fragmented, and the British, French and Spain all would have moved back into the New World to reestablish order and control, and America, as we know it today, wouldn't exist. Such was the narrow minded, shortsighted view of the Southern confederacy rebels in the 1860's. From the position of history now, they were and always will be wrong.....STFN
If the Confederate States were merely in revolt, and had not seceded, then why did they need to petition for readmittance to the Union?

And please, stop stating the secession is illegal, that really is nonsense, in light of the founding principle of the Union that no law nor government short of the Bar of Heaven can hold a people that decides to dissolve them. That is, the law belongs to the people, not the people to the law. How could it possibly be otherwise one also wishes to assert that there can be such a thing as a free nation.

What justification, in light of the founding document of the Union can you assert to deny the right of a State to secede? I'm really curious to here raqtionale that doesn't rely upon the rule of a government that the Declaration assures us that the people may exit, alter or dissolve at will.

So. You tell us that the Southern States never seceded. But Congress certainly said that they did. So they invalidated their own justification for aggressive war. the Lincoln Myth is a transparent though well inculcated myth, since he never ended slavery and could not have. And by the way, the Fourteenth Amendment was never ratified, which a little research will reeal for you as well.

I know that it's painful to examine these facts. It casts our country in a less noble light. Think about what you're clinging to. The myth of a war of naked aggression, committed against an independent Confederacy -- independent by the admission of Congress. I'm sorry that this upsets you so, but it is true nonetheless.

I really do want to read your justification, just remember that our own country is founded on the principle that you can't rationally depend on any of its own laws, statures, court rulings or even its constitution to deny any state its God given right to dissolve any bond to that government. If you don't agree with that,I suggest that you take it up worth Jefferson or the Prime Minister of the ****ry that you've been in rebellion against your whole life.
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:55 AM
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Default Re: 7 W&L students demand removal of Confederate flags, decry view of Lee's legacy

The American Grievance Industry has amassed more power than its own government and law. A frightening development.






BTW, it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if this Grievance Industry were to secede ... and leave the rest of us alone.
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Old 04-30-2014, 11:06 AM
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Post Re: 7 W&L students demand removal of Confederate flags, decry view of Lee's legacy

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Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
And cleverer, more fictional and more useful people have the right to tell the twits that they spoiled little are idiots who grew up watching too much Opra and who ought to keep quiet until they have something useful to say, probably in the distant future.
And then they should be ignored.
Predictable from OC that he wants others to be silent rather than both sides to be heard...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harvey
The American Grievance Industry has amassed more power than its own government and law. A frightening development.
BTW, it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if this Grievance Industry were to secede ... and leave the rest of us alone.
Are you referring to the Tea Party?
All those guys do is whine.
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