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Opinions & Editorials Discuss Holder tells state AG's not to defend laws they disagree with at the General Forum; Originally Posted by Idealogically Promiscuous Nothing you presented negates my point. The attorney general can, by his power of representing ...

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:32 PM
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Default Re: Holder tells state AG's not to defend laws they disagree with

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Originally Posted by Idealogically Promiscuous View Post
Nothing you presented negates my point. The attorney general can, by his power of representing the state, decide that it is a waste of tax payer money and his office's time to try to defend an indefensible law. I certainly wouldn't want my AG wasting his time trying to defend, for instance, blue laws that shouldn't even be on the books anymore.

Representation doesn't necessarily mean zealous defense. It's strategic defense, as well.
And where in the examples I cited, do you see the discretion that you imagine?


Please explain too, the Attorney General of a State deciding not to defend the actions of his State is materially different than a State Public Defender deciding not to defend his client because of his personal opinion?
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: Holder tells state AG's not to defend laws they disagree with

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Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
And where in the examples I cited, do you see the discretion that you imagine?
It's not imagination. It's done all the time. If a law is indefensible, the attorney general is well within his rights to decline to defend it as a waste of resources. For example, many years ago, it was illegal to sell alcohol on Sundays in North Carolina because of some ancient blue law on the books. The Alcohol and Beverage Control Board filed suit against the state to overturn the law. The Attorney General at the time, Grubb Martin, declined to defend the law. It got overturned within the month.


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Please explain too, the Attorney General of a State deciding not to defend the actions of his State is materially different than a State Public Defender deciding not to defend his client because of his personal opinion?
The attorney general is not defending a citizen. He is defending policy and legislation. It's civil versus criminal matter. No one's freedom hangs in the balance and he isn't going for a guilty/not guilty ruling. He's not a prosecutor (who, by the way, also get to decide when to try and not try a case), he's a solicitor, a policy official. Sometimes it's like you never had a civics class in your life.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: Holder tells state AG's not to defend laws they disagree with

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Originally Posted by Idealogically Promiscuous View Post
It's not imagination. It's done all the time. If a law is indefensible, the attorney general is well within his rights to decline to defend it as a waste of resources. For example, many years ago, it was illegal to sell alcohol on Sundays in North Carolina because of some ancient blue law on the books. The Alcohol and Beverage Control Board filed suit against the state to overturn the law. The Attorney General at the time, Grubb Martin, declined to defend the law. It got overturned within the month.




The attorney general is not defending a citizen. He is defending policy and legislation. It's civil versus criminal matter. No one's freedom hangs in the balance and he isn't going for a guilty/not guilty ruling. He's not a prosecutor (who, by the way, also get to decide when to try and not try a case), he's a solicitor, a policy official. Sometimes it's like you never had a civics class in your life.
North Carolina: "Represents all state government departments, agencies and commissions in legal matters"

Assuming that this was the law at the time, he should have been removed from office and prosecuted. as the criminal he was. Under this law, it isn't up to him to pick and chose laws. Thus the term "public servant."
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: Holder tells state AG's not to defend laws they disagree with

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North Carolina: "Represents all state government departments, agencies and commissions in legal matters"

Assuming that this was the law at the time, he should have been removed from office and prosecuted. as the criminal he was. Under this law, it isn't up to him to pick and chose laws. Thus the term "public servant."
Well maybe you should write an angry letter to someone. Or you could just suck it up, put on your big boy pants, cupcake, and realize that the world does not conform to your fantasies.

You have a very skewed idea of "represent". My attorney represented me in a lawsuit and part of his representation was to tell me when to back down. The AG does the same for all departments, agencies, and commissions in legal matters.

Take a ****ing civics class and then get back to me.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: Holder tells state AG's not to defend laws they disagree with

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Originally Posted by Idealogically Promiscuous View Post
Well maybe you should write an angry letter to someone. Or you could just suck it up, put on your big boy pants, cupcake, and realize that the world does not conform to your fantasies.

You have a very skewed idea of "represent". My attorney represented me in a lawsuit and part of his representation was to tell me when to back down. The AG does the same for all departments, agencies, and commissions in legal matters.

Take a ****ing civics class and then get back to me.
Telling you back down is nothing like walking out in the middle of the proceedings, or not showing up at all, or announcing his support for your opponent's case, and then sending you a bill.

Now consider this carefully, because you seem to have a problem with this very simple concept: I am not offended because the world doesn't conform to my fantasies, I am offended because our servants do not conform to our laws, laws that they are oath bound to uphold, and that very foolish citizens cheer them on because the believe that at the moment, their causes are favored by their lawless actions.

Oh, and I have had civics classes. I do believe that the instructors would have been content with a legal action that would have seen Attorneys General who acted in the manner described hanged. Or put before a firing squad, opinions varied.
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:50 AM
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Default Re: Holder tells state AG's not to defend laws they disagree with

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Telling you back down is nothing like walking out in the middle of the proceedings, or not showing up at all, or announcing his support for your opponent's case, and then sending you a bill.

Now consider this carefully, because you seem to have a problem with this very simple concept:
Yeah I went ahead and stopped right there because it's clear you still haven't caught up on your civics lessons yet.
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:54 AM
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Post Re: Holder tells state AG's not to defend laws they disagree with

Funny.
Ain't you the guy who would point out such a discrepancy and then start harping on people not reading the story??
Not noticing that the headline is a lie?

Let me clue you in.
not to defend laws they disagree with =/= don't believe that those laws are constitutional.

If they "disagree" with a law but it is constitutional, then defend it.
If they "agree" with a law but it is NOT constitutional, then do NOT defend it.

These people took oaths to uphold the constitution. This approach is simply falling in line with that.
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Old 02-28-2014, 03:33 PM
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Default Re: Holder tells state AG's not to defend laws they disagree with

This type of blanket statement from Holder is to be expected, he is an incompetent boob with no respect for the law.
That aside, on a state level it depends on how the laws are in place. For instance, here in Alaska we have a constitutional amendment that defines marriage as between one man and one woman so the AG is oath bound to defend it. He took an oath to defend the constitution of the state, thats his job.
If another state has just a law, sans constitutional amendment, then the AG may have discretion depending on that states oath/job description.
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Old 03-01-2014, 03:10 AM
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Default Re: Holder tells state AG's not to defend laws they disagree with

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Originally Posted by Idealogically Promiscuous View Post
Yeah I went ahead and stopped right there because it's clear you still haven't caught up on your civics lessons yet.
You are wrong. He's very clear on the AG's job description and Holder is telling the AG's to disobey the law. Step away from the item involved and look at this independently and you'll see where you are wrong. No one is arguing right or wrong of the subject, only that Holder is asking AG's to disobey their sworn duties. And that is the crux of the matter. It makes no difference what the subject is. Just like directing ICE not to arrest any more illegal aliens. They have a sworn duty to do so, but Holder and Obama had directed them not to do so. Or Holder refusing to prosecute Black Panthers for intimidating voters or claiming executive privilege instead of answering questions about gun running to Mexico.

The law is the law and if we allow them to get away with it because they are pursuing an issue we agree with, we are only hurting ourselves.
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Old 03-01-2014, 07:14 AM
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Default Re: Holder tells state AG's not to defend laws they disagree with

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Originally Posted by Idealogically Promiscuous View Post
It's not imagination. It's done all the time. If a law is indefensible, the attorney general is well within his rights to decline to defend it as a waste of resources. For example, many years ago, it was illegal to sell alcohol on Sundays in North Carolina because of some ancient blue law on the books. The Alcohol and Beverage Control Board filed suit against the state to overturn the law. The Attorney General at the time, Grubb Martin, declined to defend the law. It got overturned within the month.


The attorney general is not defending a citizen. He is defending policy and legislation. It's civil versus criminal matter. No one's freedom hangs in the balance and he isn't going for a guilty/not guilty ruling. He's not a prosecutor (who, by the way, also get to decide when to try and not try a case), he's a solicitor, a policy official. Sometimes it's like you never had a civics class in your life.
Grubb Martin was Governor of NC, not AG. Grocery stores can start selling beer after 12 noon on Sundays, with an ID. ABC stores are closed on Sundays.
Defending policy and legislation? Not a prosecutor? I took civics, but I don't remember this stuff coming up. I believe in most states, AG's are elected. North Carolina elects their AG. I certainly hope you aren't right.
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