Commentary: 10 ugly things about the immigration debate - Page 3

jamesrage · #21 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dga

And thank you for illustrating, quite clearly, that it is all about race

I was merely pointing out that the la raza means "the race".

,

Quote:

since an AMERICAN from "the race" most certainly cannot have an unbiased opinion on the issues.

What would the person who is being discriminated against know about discrimination... ughhhh.

Perhaps if that individual was not part of a pro-illegals organization that is named "the race" while trying to accuse those who are against illegal immigration of being racis/xenophobe/hispani-phobe or whatever then perhaps that individual would get more sympathy.

Pro-illegals screaming racist,discrimination and other nonsense are mostly liars because of the fact they are trying to defend a criminal act.So they have to scream racist,anti-immigrant(even though it illegal immigrants that the vast majority of people have a problem with),hispaniphobe and xenophobe as a means to try to shame the opposition into silence. They are so good at their tactics they have morons convinced that a multi-racial and multi-ethic group opposed to illegal immigration is nothing but racist.

dga · #22 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesrage

I was merely pointing out that the la raza means "the race".

,
Perhaps if that individual was not part of a pro-illegals organization that is named "the race" while trying to accuse those who are against illegal immigration of being racis/xenophobe/hispani-phobe or whatever then perhaps that individual would get more sympathy.

Pro-illegals screaming racist,discrimination and other nonsense are mostly liars because of the fact they are trying to defend a criminal act.So they have to scream racist,anti-immigrant(even though it illegal immigrants that the vast majority of people have a problem with),hispaniphobe and xenophobe as a means to try to shame the opposition into silence. They are so good at their tactics they have morons convinced that a multi-racial and multi-ethic group opposed to illegal immigration is nothing but racist.

If you are serious about debating this with me, then you should go read up on the other forums where we've hashed this back and forth - no time, no energy left in me. If you read the post, you will read that these views are shared by many Hispanics, they are not the sole views of the author (even though it is a commentary).

I will just say this: Since there is no way of distinguishing between a legal Hispanic and an illegal Hispanic, what is to keep people from discriminating against all Hispanics on the suspicion that they are illegal? Hate crimes against Hispanics are on the rise, statistics do not lie.

Gordon Shumway · #23 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dga

The Hypocrisy: Does not refer to the American people, but to the government. Anyone who thinks they have been unable to close the border (as opposed to unwilling) is a bit naive, IMO

It is anti-Hispanic, because if you're any other nationality you may not have your papers (there are tons of Chinese, Hindu, Irish, Russian, etc.), but no one will ask you for them or think twice on it. "The people" may want to see companies fined, but in so many raids I have yet to see any of them sanctioned - please correct me if I'm mistaken.

The Profiling: I agree you can applaud profiling, as long as you're not a minority and you're not the one being profiled,

I for one have a problem with being stopped, detained, frisked because I am of a certain race or look a certain way. God forbid I don't have any ID on me at the time, I might end up in Mexico,

The Amnesia: "Americans think grandpa was welcomed with open arms and that he plunged into the melting pot. Whatever."

The point being assimilation takes time,

Hispanics did not ask to dial two for Spanish, advertisers peddling their products did that on their own. This guy is second generation only, and he is a journalist for CNN (and of Mexican descent).

Otherwise you make some valid points,

So the "hypocrisy" is pointed towards the U.S. government but the "amnesia" is pointed towards the American citizen...?...either way Navarette seems to believe that Americans are stupid.

And, while you may not like profiling & despite its flaws it is what makes law enforcement possible. Without it we'd be looking for something rather than a "bald fat white man with a goatee" in which case I'd be the one being profiled. Believeing that only minorities get profiled is dishonest. While it may be true that minorities get profiled more often it's not due to racism as has been implied.

Quote:

Border Fence Firm Snared for Hiring Illegal Workers
by Scott Horsley

Listen Now [2 min 29 sec] add to playlist

All Things Considered, December 14, 2006 · A fence-building company in Southern California agrees to pay nearly $5 million in fines for hiring illegal immigrants. Two executives from the company may also serve jail time. The Golden State Fence Company's work includes some of the border fence between San Diego and Mexico.

Quote:

Fishing company accused of hiring 126 illegal immigrants - Newport News, Virginia - (fined $7 million)
The owners of a Newport News commercial fishing company have been charged with employing more than 100 illegal immigrants over the past four years.

The U.S. Attorney’s Office said in a court filing Thursday that it is seeking nearly $7 million in penalties from the Peabody Corp., which operates eight trawlers used mostly for scalloping.

According to federal charges, company president William F. Peabody and vice president Yvonne M. Peabody knowingly employed 126 undocumented workers and disregarded warnings about the illegal activity from the U.S. Coast Guard and the Internal Revenue Service.”*

Quote:

Saddle maker fined over immigration violations
MUSKOGEE -- A judge has ordered a saddle and tack manufacturing company in Sulphur to pay $51,000 in fines in connection with violations of immigration law.

Billy Cook pleaded guilty to two misdemeanors immigration violations and was given a $3,000 fine on each count. The 77-year-old owner of Billy Cook Harness and Saddle also was given two years of probation on each misdemeanor count.

Quote:

Wal-Mart pays $11M to settle illegal immigrant janitors case
WASHINGTON (AP) — Wal-Mart Stores (WMT), the world's biggest retailer, has agreed to pay $11 million to settle federal allegations it used illegal immigrants to clean its stores, attorneys in the case said Friday.

dga · #24 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Shumway

So the "hypocrisy" is pointed towards the U.S. government but the "amnesia" is pointed towards the American citizen...?... either way Navarette seems to believe that Americans are stupid.

And, while you may not like profiling & despite its flaws it is what makes law enforcement possible. Without it we'd be looking for something rather than a "bald fat white man with a goatee" in which case I'd be the one being profiled. Believeing that only minorities get profiled is dishonest. While it may be true that minorities get profiled more often it's not due to racism as has been implied.

I don't perceive it as any such thing... I believe the American people are a bit intolerant and shortsighted when it comes to the time it requires for any foreigner to assimilate to the culture. The fact that we are talking about millions of people only exacerbates the problem.

I have issues with profiling in general. I believe that if in the process of it the civil liberties of but one innocent person are violated, the practice is faulty. But that is just my personal view.

On the fines issue, I stand corrected,

saltwn · #25 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Shumway

So the "hypocrisy" is pointed towards the U.S. government but the "amnesia" is pointed towards the American citizen...?...either way Navarette seems to believe that Americans are stupid.

And, while you may not like profiling & despite its flaws it is what makes law enforcement possible. Without it we'd be looking for something rather than a "bald fat white man with a goatee" in which case I'd be the one being profiled. Believeing that only minorities get profiled is dishonest. While it may be true that minorities get profiled more often it's not due to racism as has been implied.

What I wonder about is why I never heard reports of Vietnamese Americans being busted for violating commercial fishing regulations. Just as it was becoming harder for an American born to acquire a captain's permit and license a boat, many former refugees were showing up with brand new boats, papers in hand. O.K. I can understand their former livelihood in their old country may have involved fishing and shrimping, so our government wanted them to be productive citizens instead of a burden to society. BUT, the red fish was outlawed as an acceptable catch for commercial use. (It was still allowed in sport fishing.) Native borns were getting fined right and left if they had one red fish mixed in with their catch. And when you are unloading a net, your main concern is fish you are going to keep, so most of the red fish were dying on deck till the triage was over anyway.

Then there are laws in certain areas that do not allow night fishing for periods of time.
Every night skiffs would travel back and forth between the shore and the commercial fishing boats. These boats were driven by Vietnamese women. The boat was loaded down with contraband catches that had been cut up and fillet out so you couldn't really tell what kind of fish it was and sent to market the next day.
Many people called the coast guard, the fish and wildlife offices to no avail.

jamesrage · #26 (**permalink**) 05-23-2008, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dga

If you are serious about debating this with me, then you should go read up on the other forums where we've hashed this back and forth - no time, no energy left in me. If you read the post, you will read that these views are shared by many Hispanics, they are not the sole views of the author (even though it is a commentary).

Of course I am sure many Hispanics share the views of the pro-illegals organization.Many hispanics a harbor illegals. There is actually hispanics who do not favor illegal immigration.

Quote:

I will just say this: Since there is no way of distinguishing between a legal Hispanic and an illegal Hispanic, what is to keep people from discriminating against all Hispanics on the suspicion that they are illegal?

1.If someone is arrested then check for proof of citizenship from everyone regardless of skin color,Tulsa Oklahoma has this ordinance and I am sure some other cities do as well.

2.Go to the day labor sites.IF they do not speak English then they are most likely here illegally since they do not offer visas so people can stand on the corner.
H2B visa Information Center
The H2B visa is available to non-professional (unskilled) ‘seasonal’ workers that do Not work in the agricultural field (h2c visa).

Type of H2B Work Includes:
Hospitality, Hotels / Motels, Resorts, Ticket Sales, Cruise ships, Construction workers, Maintenance, Janitorial, Ski Resorts, Landscaping, Golf Courses, Water parks, Security, Ride Operators, Restaurants and bars, Warehouse, Retail Stores

H2B visa Requirements:
The employee must have a job offer from a US employer to perform a temporary job.
The employee must meet the minimum qualifications for the job that the employer has offered.
No qualified Americans are willing or able to take the job.
* The employee must intend to return home when the job ends and visa expires.

H2A Visa

For whom is a H2A Visa appropriate?

Foreign agricultural workers who will work for US companies to provide labor or services of a temporary or seasonal nature
What are the requirements for obtaining an H2A Visa?

An H2A petitioner must establish that the employment proposed in the certification is of a temporary or seasonal nature. Employment is of a seasonal nature where it is tied to a certain time of year by an event or pattern, such as a short annual growing cycle or a specific aspect of a longer cycle, and requires labor levels far above those necessary for ongoing operations. Employment is of a temporary nature where the employer's need to fill the position with a temporary worker will, except in extraordinary circumstances, last no longer than one year.

3.Send undercover agents to pose as illegals at these day labor sites to catch the scum who hire illegals.

4.Make sure businesses are not hiring illegals,if they do toss the owner in jail and deport the illegals to their home countries.

Quote:

Hate crimes against Hispanics are on the rise, statistics do not lie.

Hatred is the motivation behind lots of crimes,especially violent crimes.

Spencer Collins · #27 (**permalink**) 05-23-2008, 02:22 AM

My wife just told me that one of her friends is all upset because two of her friends family members illegally here from Guatemala have been indicted for fraud!Not only were these families here ILLEGALY,they took ADVANTAGE of our weak system. While working they were also collecting welfare for the last two years!They told their case worker that they were poor and unemployed when both were working more than 40 hours per week. Tonight they jumped bail and are headed for Guatemala,they left their four children for the government to take care of..

Do I feel sorry for them? HELL NO...

dga · #28 (**permalink**) 05-23-2008, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesrage

Of course I am sure many Hispanics share the views of the pro-illegals organization.Many hispanics a harbor illegals. There is actually hispanics who do not favor illegal immigration.

1.If someone is arrested then check for proof of citizenship from everyone regardless of skin color,Tulsa Oklahoma has this ordinance and I am sure some other cities do as well.

2.Go to the day labor sites.IF they do not speak English then they are most likely here illegally since they do not offer visas so people can stand on the corner.
H2B visa Information Center
The H2B visa is available to non-professional (unskilled) ‘seasonal’ workers that do Not work in the agricultural field (h2c visa).

Type of H2B Work Includes:
Hospitality, Hotels / Motels, Resorts, Ticket Sales, Cruise ships, Construction workers, Maintenance, Janitorial, Ski Resorts, Landscaping, Golf Courses, Water parks, Security, Ride Operators, Restaurants and bars, Warehouse, Retail Stores

H2B visa Requirements:
The employee must have a job offer from a US employer to perform a temporary job.
The employee must meet the minimum qualifications for the job that the employer has offered.
No qualified Americans are willing or able to take the job.
* The employee must intend to return home when the job ends and visa expires.

H2A Visa

For whom is a H2A Visa appropriate?

Foreign agricultural workers who will work for US companies to provide labor or services of a temporary or seasonal nature
What are the requirements for obtaining an H2A Visa?

An H2A petitioner must establish that the employment proposed in the certification is of a temporary or seasonal nature. Employment is of a seasonal nature where it is tied to a certain time of year by an event or pattern, such as a short annual growing cycle or a specific aspect of a longer cycle, and requires labor levels far above those necessary for ongoing operations. Employment is of a temporary nature where the employer's need to fill the position with a temporary worker will, except in extraordinary circumstances, last no longer than one year.

3.Send undercover agents to pose as illegals at these day labor sites to catch the scum who hire illegals.

4.Make sure businesses are not hiring illegals,if they do toss the owner in jail and deport the illegals to their home countries.

Hatred is the motivation behind lots of crimes,especially violent crimes.

As I have said before, I think people who deserve the chance should get it, but if the solution is to deport all illegals so be it. I believe it is imperative to close the border, come to a resolution with respect to illegals (give them papers or ship them out), but it has to be done at a federal level, where this issue will be put to rest once and for all. You can call the discrimination claims lies, I feel otherwise,

saltwn · #29 (**permalink**) 05-23-2008, 07:09 PM

Just some food for thought. I was trying to remember the past policies we've had when we tightened immigration. But I came across this wiki entry. It has some good statistics if you'd like to view the entire article. It's kind of long.

Immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

Contemporary immigrants tend to be younger than the native population of the United States, with people between the ages 15 and 34 substantially overrepresented. [7] Immigrants are also more likely to be married and less likely to be divorced than native-born Americans of the same age.[8]

Quote:

Three-quarters of immigrants surveyed by Public Agenda said they intend to make the U.S. their permanent home. If they had to do it over again, 80 percent of immigrants say they would still come to the U.S. 50 percent of immigrants say the government has become tougher on enforcing immigration laws since 9/11, and 30% report that they personally have experienced discrimination.[8]

Quote:

Public attitudes about immigration in the U.S. have been heavily influenced by the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks. The number of Americans who told the Gallup poll they wanted immigration restricted increased 20 percentage points after the attacks.[9] Half of Americans say tighter controls on immigration would do "a great deal" to enhance U.S. national security, according to a Public Agenda survey.[10]

Quote:

44 percent saying it helps and 45 percent saying it hurts the U.S.[12] Surveys show that the U.S. public has a far more positive outlook about legal immigration than illegal immigration. The public is less willing to provide government services or legal protections to illegal immigrants. When survey data is examined by race, African Americans are both more willing to extend government services to illegal immigrants and more worried about competition for jobs, according to the Pew Research Center.[13]

Quote:

Contemporary immigrants settle predominantly in seven states: California, New York, Florida, Texas, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Illinois.[citation needed] These are all high foreign-born population states, together comprising about 44% of the U.S. population as a whole.[citation needed] The combined total immigrant population of these seven states is much higher than what would be proportional, with 70% of the total foreign-born population as of 2000.[citation needed] Of those who immigrated between 2000 and 2005, 58% were from Latin America.[citation needed]

Quote:

Bureau figures show that the U.S. population grew by 2.8 million between July 1, 2004, and July 1, 2005.[15] Hispanics accounted for 1.3 million of that increase.[16] If current birth rate and immigration rates were to remain unchanged for another 70 to 80 years, the U.S. population would double to nearly 600 million.[17] The Census Bureau's estimates actually go as high as predicting that there will be one billion Americans in 2100, compared with one million people in 1700 and 5.2 million in 1800.[18][19] Census statistics also show that 45% of children under age 5 are from a racial or ethnic minority.[20][21]

Immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll continue to search for those articles I originally set out to find.

But you never know where your little search engine will lead you.

chuck7251 · #30 (**permalink**) 05-27-2008, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dga

I don't perceive it as any such thing... I believe the American people are a bit intolerant and shortsighted when it comes to the time it requires for any foreigner to assimilate to the culture. The fact that we are talking about millions of people only exacerbates the problem.

The number of people should not matter, as each individual should make the honest effort to mesh with the society they are infiltrating.

Why shouldn't we be intolerant? Those who are not making the effort to assimilate, are being divisive.

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