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Opinions & Editorials Discuss Blood and Sand at the General Forum; Blood and Sand: Books: The New Yorker from an article by David Remnick In Soviet-era Russia, honest young men and ...

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Old 04-30-2008, 12:13 AM
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Default Blood and Sand

Blood and Sand: Books: The New Yorker

from an article
by David Remnick


Quote:
In Soviet-era Russia, honest young men and women of academic inclination knew never to enter the field of modern history. In order to live a scholarly life relatively free of cant and suppression, one studied Byzantine manuscripts, Mayan civilization, medieval Burma—anything that would safely skirt mention of one’s own time and place. In the new society of Israel, however noisily democratic, national history is inescapably political, too. And, like any young nation, especially one born of conflict, Israel did not readily accept scholarly work that challenged its most cherished national myths.
Quote:
In 1988, Morris published “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949,” which revolutionized Israeli historiography and, to a great extent, a nation’s understanding of its own birth. Relying less on testimony than on the newly available documents, Morris described how and why sixty per cent of the Palestinians were uprooted and their society destroyed. It was a far more complex picture than many Israelis were prepared to accept. The book features a map that shows three hundred and eighty-nine Arab villages, from upper Galilee to the Negev Desert. Morris revealed that in forty-nine of these villages the indigenous Arabs were expelled by the Haganah and other Jewish military forces; in sixty-two villages, the Arabs fled out of fear, having heard rumors of attacks and even massacres; in six, the villagers left at the instruction of Palestinian local leaders. The refugees, who probably expected to return to their homes in a matter of weeks or months, went to Gaza and the West Bank, and also to surrounding Arab countries—Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, and Syria—where, to this day, they have never been fully absorbed.
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Israel, led by a “party hack of a prime minister,” who botched the war with Hezbollah in 2006, will now be “like a rabbit caught in the headlights” as Iran prepares to launch nuclear-tipped Shihab missiles at Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Be’er Sheva. In this scenario, which Morris implied is nearly inevitable, the Israeli leadership knows that it cannot launch a unilateral attack on Iran, for fear of igniting a “world-embracing” terror campaign:
Quote:
So Israel’s leaders will grit their teeth and hope that somehow things will turn out for the best. Perhaps, after acquiring the Bomb, the Iranians will behave “rationally”?
But the Iranians are driven by a higher logic. And they will launch their rockets. And, as with the first Holocaust, the international community will do nothing. It will all be over, for Israel, in a few minutes—not like in the 1940s, when the world had five long years in which to wring its hands and do nothing.
Blood and Sand: Books: The New Yorker

This article is worth a read. Explains much about the current middle east conflict in a concise easily understandable format.
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Old 04-30-2008, 09:46 AM
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And this is the real reason we might soon be at war with Iran...
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Old 04-30-2008, 02:05 PM
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Default Re: Blood and Sand

And one major point in the very same guy's NEXT book, called "(The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited")...

Quote:
Benny Morris, the historian who documented instances where Palestinians were expelled, also found that Arab leaders encouraged their brethren to leave. Starting in December 1947, he said, “Arab officers ordered the complete evacuation of specific villages in certain areas, lest their inhabitants ‘treacherously’ acquiesce in Israeli rule or hamper Arab military deployments.” He concluded, “There can be no exaggerating the importance of these early Arab-initiated evacuations in the demoralization, and eventual exodus, of the remaining rural and urban populations

The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: “Any opposition to this order...is an obstacle to the holy war...and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts” (Morris, Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986). Morris also documented that the Arab Higher Committee ordered the evacuation of “several dozen villages, as well as the removal of dependents from dozens more” in April-July 1948. “The invading Arab armies also occasionally ordered whole villages to depart, so as not to be in their way
What's also never mentioned when discussing Palestinian flight is the number of Jews that had to leave all of the surrounding lands where they've lived for centuries because they were expelled by the countries that were about to invade israel...
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Old 04-30-2008, 03:28 PM
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Default Re: Blood and Sand

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
And one major point in the very same guy's NEXT book, called "(The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited")...

What's also never mentioned when discussing Palestinian flight is the number of Jews that had to leave all of the surrounding lands where they've lived for centuries because they were expelled by the countries that were about to invade israel...
I think the entire article points to the fact the Israelis and the Palestinians are equally at fault for today's mess. I could pick out several quotes to support an opposite view than your's. Even Ben-Gurion stated they had stolen Arab land. And realized there could be no Arabs left if Israel was to have peace.
Truth. Truth. Truth. Palestinians and Israelis are fighting over a piece of real estate. The passions have flared so high each side has vowed to annihilate the other.
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Old 04-30-2008, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
I think the entire article points to the fact the Israelis and the Palestinians are equally at fault for today's mess. I could pick out several quotes to support an opposite view than your's. Even Ben-Gurion stated they had stolen Arab land. And realized there could be no Arabs left if Israel was to have peace.
Truth. Truth. Truth. Palestinians and Israelis are fighting over a piece of real estate. The passions have flared so high each side has vowed to annihilate the other.
When has Israel "vowed to annihilate" the Palestinians?...Or even Arabs in general?...
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Old 04-30-2008, 03:38 PM
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Default Re: Blood and Sand

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
When has Israel "vowed to annihilate" the Palestinians?...Or even Arabs in general?...
Read the article. It was realized long ago that the fact Israel had moved in and taken over was going to make the Palestinians forever enemies. The entire government knew they could not live within the same territory as Palestinians. They got rid of entire villages. Their only mistake in the author's own words was they didn't get rid of ALL of them.
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Consumption is indeed important in a free economy: particularly the freedom of consumers to buy their goods in unhampered markets. However, key to long-term economic growth is investment (savings), which is the opposite of consumption. Public policies that promote consumption — such as low interest rates — do so at the expense of savings. Less savings means less investments; an economy that does not save or invest will consume all of its resources and eventually end up bankrupt.-David Saied

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Old 04-30-2008, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
Read the article. It was realized long ago that the fact Israel had moved in and taken over was going to make the Palestinians forever enemies. The entire government knew they could not live within the same territory as Palestinians. They got rid of entire villages. Their only mistake in the author's own words was they didn't get rid of ALL of them.
From the author...

Quote:
Among Arab clerics, kings, and diplomats, the view of the Jews hardened into a maximalist politics, at once threatened and threatening. In 1943, when Franklin Roosevelt sent out feelers to King Ibn Sa’ud of Saudi Arabia to solve the Palestine situation, the King responded that he was “prepared to receive anyone of any religion except (repeat except) a Jew.” In a letter to F.D.R., he wrote, “Palestine . . . has been an Arab country since the dawn of history and . . . was never inhabited by the Jews for more than a period of time, during which their history in the land was full of murder and cruelty.” In 1947, Jordan’s prime minister, Samir Rifa’i, hardly the most radical politician in the region, told reporters, “The Jews are a people to be feared. . . . Give them another twenty-five years and they will be all over the Middle East, in our country and Syria and Lebanon, in Iraq and Egypt. . . . They were responsible for starting two world wars. . . . Yes, I have read and studied, and I know they were behind Hitler at the beginning of his movement.”
Hatred derived from paranoia...

PS - It's been 25 years since the last line...Look how BIG Israel's become...
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Old 04-30-2008, 04:31 PM
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Default Re: Blood and Sand

I don't remember if they were behind Hitler, but they were certainly deeply involved in the worker's revolution in Russia that deposed (killed) the Czar and imposed communism. So at the time the Arabs would have every reason to fear Jewish settlement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
From the author...

Hatred derived from paranoia...

PS - It's been 25 years since the last line...Look how BIG Israel's become...
Quote:
Resistance to the earliest wave of Jewish immigration was apparent, but it was polite compared to what came later. In 1899, the mayor of Jerusalem, Yusuf Dia al-Khalidi, wrote to Zadok Kahn, the chief rabbi of France, saying that the Zionist idea was in theory “natural, fine, and just. . . . Who can challenge the rights of the Jews to Palestine? Good lord, historically it is really your country.” But, like other Palestinian notables, he opposed Jewish immigration, because the land was inhabited and resistance would inevitably follow. “In the name of God, let Palestine be left in peace,” Khalidi wrote. Rabbi Kahn passed the letter on to Herzl, who blithely wrote to Khalidi to reassure him that the Zionists, with their wealth, their skills, and their education, would build an economy to benefit both Arab and Jew.
Quote:



David Ben-Gurion, recognized the us-or-them nature of the conflict; he sensed the emotional force of his adversary’s position even as he fought for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. Between 1931 and 1939, as Jewish emigration mounted, the Arab majority declined from eighty-two per cent to seventy per cent. “What Arab cannot do his math and understand that immigration at the rate of sixty thousand a year means a Jewish state in all of Palestine?” Ben-Gurion stated. As he confessed years later to the Zionist Nahum Goldmann, “Why should the Arabs make peace? . . . We have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them?”
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Old 04-30-2008, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: Blood and Sand

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I don't remember if they were behind Hitler.
Actually, it was the Palestinians who were working with Hitler. The Mufti of Jerrusalem was a genocidal Nazi who headed death squads in the Balkans and who had been promised the extermination of Midddle east Jewry after the Nazis finished off the European Jews. Within the Palestinian mandate, he ruthlessly persecuted both Jews (who were terrorized by the muslims long before the establishment of the Irgun) and any Arabs who opposed his genocidal ambitions.

The Nazi connection is well established, as is the relationship between the Nazi ideology and Hamas/Hizb'Allah and their ilk.
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Old 04-30-2008, 06:45 PM
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Default Re: Blood and Sand

O.K. if you read the article written about the literary career of Morris, see how he originally scouted out facts that were contradictory to the then accepted history of his people. (Kind of like American history tells different stories when it comes to their own ruthlessness in settling this country and expanding to Mexico. Then along comes a Renaissance in historical publishing that tells us a familiar figure in the old west was black and all this time his picture was faded to resemble a white man. And Custer's last stand was a foolish attempt to win political points for it's commander...)
Then as he is inevitably drawn to become a traitor or patriot; his attitude changes.
That is what I wanted you to see. The struggle for survival one-ups the truth about one's own people.
It is a difficult problem -the middle east. But I just wanted to point out there are no good guys.
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