You refuse to acknowledge we may have avoided a complete economic collapse. You also know as well as I do that the stimulus money hasn't really been gone through. I know you are ticked at how they are trying to fix things and you disagree wiith the approach. But you must atleast acknowledge that they are trying to do what they think will help. I am far more angry that we ever got in this position then I am at those who are atleast trying to pull us out. What they are doing may fail. Could happen I fully understand that. And I don't mind debating that with you or anyone. What bothers me is when folks attach a bunch of nonsense to the thing. Like the name calling. Or trying to make out that Obama had some secret ambision to take over the economy and create a socialist society. I think he wopuld have left most things untouched except maybe healthcare had this collapse not happened.

Seems to me that the complete economic collapse was likely avoided before Obama took office.Guess you prove that previous point. A complete economic collapse has been avoided without the need for more wasteful spending.No one on the right actually believes that. It seems clear that they are doing exactly what they said they needed to do -- taking advantage of a crisis to push their agenda of expanded the role and size of government.
You can think that all you want, but the facts demonstrate otherwise. There's no 'secret ambition', there are facts.

__________________
Dudes ... you're just NOT THAT MUCH ****ING SMARTER than all of us. GET OVER YOURSELVES!
-- Me, to President Obama and the rest of his self-loving amateur staff.

The key word here is "MAY". There's NO evidence that indicates that the actions of the gov't helped anything. With equal veracity, I can state that the actions of the gov't MAY have stopped a natural economic recovery. But there are far too many on the left who REFUSE to even consider this and the current admin. is putting it's future on people believing this regardless of it's accuracy. When state that the gov't is trying to pull us out, I've got to look at what's been done and compare it to the last time we were in the same situation and the results of that debacle. We're hearing the same rhetoric now that was spouted off during the Great Depression when the same response to the same situation did nothing more than dig the hole deeper and cripple our nation for over a decade. I'm just a simple programmer, working for a small wood products company and I can see this plain as day, so why is that these college educated individuals can't see it?? Are they oblivious to history?? Do they think that they are so much smarter than thier predecessors that they can make the same decisions in the same situation and get different results???

__________________
~
~
~

Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

Giving a liberal facts is like throwing bacon at a vegetarian. All it does it piss off the vegetarian and waste good bacon.

Ya know that this is all speculation. Many experts believe that government restraint is what made the depression last longer then needed. There are as many views on what was needed as there are economists. One thing that wasn't really debatable was how bad it was. And with the coming commercial real estate bubble getting ready to collapse it may not be over yet. Fact is that you don't agree with the approach much at all. I agree with some of it and disagree with large parts of it. But these are the guys in charge now. I don't think we can have 300 million presidents so we have to see what this one can do.

Absolutely. But that doesn't mean we should wait in silence as decisions are made that we disagree with and that's exactly what we're being asked to do. There was a time when the left was all about "Speak truth to power.", but now that's pretty much gone and "Speak nothing but good about those in power when we like them." has taken it's place. The idea of "noble opposition" has been replaced with attacking those who don't agree with leadership. The very people who were screaming at the top of thier lungs about "power corrupts" are suddenly in the seats of power and are getting every bit as corrupt as the people they used to scream about. The people who once chanted "Down with the establishment, up with the people" are now the establishment and don't give a rat's ass about the people.

__________________
~
~
~

Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

Giving a liberal facts is like throwing bacon at a vegetarian. All it does it piss off the vegetarian and waste good bacon.

Oh no wait a minute. I don't mind loyal opposition to what they are doing. You have your beliefs and should let em fly. I don't mind arguing what they are doing from that point of view. But when people say it was Obama's agenda to do what he has been doing you and I can atleast agree that that sort of talk is just partisan BS.