I am aware that I am about to potentially piss off the gay people on this forum. So I’m preparing myself.

I’ve been on a couple forums recently where a really active member of the gay community keeps going off about how the most important issue to the gay community that “should” be worked on by individuals and organizations like GLAAD, is AIDS. I disagree with that. AIDS is a humanitarian issue, it shouldn’t be a “gay” issue. AIDS/HIV affects straight people, gay people, bisexual people, it affects everyone. It should be researched and dealt with. To me, the organizations for gay liberation shouldn’t make that their main priority. Organizations dedicated to AIDS should make that their priority.

I cannot accept a lifestyle where people believe they can have as much sex as they want with NO repercussions. I just can’t accept that, especially since, unfortunately, everyone that I know who has gotten HIV had and still HAS that belief system that they should be able to just go around having as much sex with as many people as they can. I don’t understand it, it doesn’t make any sense to me, and it really pisses me off that because I’m out of the closet, people ASSUME that I have that same belief system. I don’t.

I’ve been in open relationships, I’ve tried them before—I’ve gotten told by people that it’s “the only way”, well that’s bull****. If that’s the only way then I guess I’ll never be in another relationship. I was open-minded to open relationships for many years and I’m not open to them anymore. I think they make the people in the relationship become complacent in the sex component of their relationship. Since they can get sex elsewhere, they’re not going to continue working on keeping the sexual part of their relationship fresh and new, and sex is quite an important element in just about any relationship unless it’s purely a platonic relationship.

Another thing is—open relationships are VERY VERY rare in the straight world. Most of the time, a guy having multiple sex partners while in a relationship is looked at as either infidelity, cheating, or just being a slut—EVEN if it was agreed upon when getting into the relationship. There are plenty of shows on TV that deal with that very subject. Are those shows homophobic because they don’t promote open relationships? I don’t think so.

This comes into place with people’s judgment against gay marriage. It’s the thing that is never talked about because to actually say it means that you’re a “bigot”, even if a whole lot of people are thinking it.

To me, when gay people can be considered just another part of society, when people stop automatically assuming that because someone is out-of-the-closet-gay that they're going to have multiple sex partners or that if someone is partnered that it's automatically going to be an "open" relationship, when gay people who are out of the closet can be in higher positions in government than mayor on a regular basis, when gay people can get married, when gay people start to be looked at as an important part of society, THAT is when we will start to see equality. THOSE are the things I think organizations like GLAAD should be focusing on. Unfortunately, they’re not going to, especially the multiple sex partner thing because it will offend so many gay people to say that out in the open.

I have been the bad guy many times when it comes to the subject of gay liberation. I was kicked out of Act Up for stating that I think that if we’re to try to give people the message that we’re like everyone else that wearing a pink tu-tu with boas when protesting is a bad idea and that we should dress like we were at the meeting—of course they said “But that’s who we are!” and I said “We’re in a meeting of supposedly like-minded people, in a safe place, we’re being ourselves, yet I don’t see you dressed that way now.” “You’re just a bigot! Bigot Bigot bigot!” and they all chanted “bigot” and almost shoved me down a flight of stairs.

I went to a gay pride planning meeting, and they were arguing for almost a half an hour over what the name of the meeting is because it was so long—“Gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, cross-dressing, parents of gay people Pride March”—I suggested that they call it “The Sexual Openness Parade” so anyone who feels repressed can be a part of the march. “That’s not what this is about!!!” “Really? What is it about then?” “You’re just a bigot! Bigot!” and received EXACTLY the same treatment I got at the Act Up meeting.

In, I think it was 1993, there was an anti-gay measure that was the Washington equivalent of Measure 9 in Oregon—it would make schools remove all books that had gay characters that weren’t referenced as sinful heathens, would allow all businesses to discriminate freely against gay people, and would allow hospitals and insurance companies to refuse service to gay people. A few friends and I decided to go undercover to the planning meeting of this measure, and we asked pointed questions that made the speaker say, “That’s not what it says, that’s not what this is about.” and we said “Yes it does, it says it right here.” “Well that’s not what it’s about” “Well then what is it about, how can you just brush past these statements in the text?” and we almost had the entire audience ready to leave the meeting. Then in comes a gay liberation organization that I can’t remember the name of—wearing ridiculous outfits and they all busted into the room saying “Shame on you! Shame! Shame! Shame!” walking the entire perimeter of the room before they left. All the work we did with our questions was destroyed, and yet the people in that organization thought they did a great thing. How disconnected from reality can they be?

So I’ve had a lot of years being frustrated with gay liberation. I’m frustrated with what people assume I’m like when they find out I’m gay. I’m just plain frustrated. And when people tell me I’m a bigot because I think that monogamous relationships are what we should be fighting for, it just really irks me and REALLY pisses me off.

Part of the concept of a “melting pot” is that there is a bit of homogenization. As some people claim some of the things from other cultures, those cultures claim some of the things from those people. There’s a tradeoff. And it often seems that in the gay community, there isn’t a willingness to have that tradeoff.

I can understand why some people are so actually violently against gay marriage when they look at the whole “open relationship” thing. There has been NO push in the straight community to allow for “open marriages”, and those that do are looked at as total freaks and as people who are wishing to TRULY destroy the sanctity of marriage.

I wish this sort of thing could be talked about without that “bigot” label being thrown out there like a race card in a discussion about racial equality and quotas and such. But, that just seems to be the way it is. Flame me all you want, this is how I feel.

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Yipes. I got a sick feeling after posting that. I feel that I've been kind-of hateful in the post and feel like I'm spitting on people. Most of it is a rant, but it's really how I feel right now.

I'm angry. I'm angry that there's no push for monogamy in the gay community. I'm angry that so many of the organizations designed to help the gay community don't seem to have their marbles located in this reality. I'm angry that so many important subjects can't be talked about without receiving nasty labels.

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move here

we're married - most of our friends are either married or in long-term relationships

I don't believe there is any difference in the gay community than the straight community - the young attractive ones are out screwing like bunnies, and and as they get older, they start to pair off.

I also don't know anybody who thinks that AIDS is the #1 issue for gays.

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"No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities."
...Christian Nestell Bovee

That you want to have sex with someone the same gender as you should not grant you rights.

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Recession is when your neighbor loses their job
Depression is when you lose your job
Recovery is when Obama loses his

I don't believe that gays want any rights whatsoever not granted to their straight counterparts

:

__________________
"No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities."
...Christian Nestell Bovee

Applies both ways.

__________________
Recession is when your neighbor loses their job
Depression is when you lose your job
Recovery is when Obama loses his

As far as I am concerned, who you have a relationship with, sexual or not, is your concern, just please don't share the details with me. I no more want to see two straight people making out in public anymore than I want to see two gays. For me, it is not a person's sexual orientation that irritates me, it is the fact that some gay people feel it is necessary to "rub it in our faces" as it were. Be gay and proud, but don't try to froce me to agree with you.

It is ironic that the world is not supposed to discriminate based on specific criteria, but yet that same criteria is used to justify some behaviors that can offend people.

In some ways, I think that's a matter of semantics.
Although, obviously important semantics to you.
I think I would quibble with you on the preventative front, which I don't think was your primary focus. The gay community should utilize focused education campaigns to help make sure that we don't get complacent.

But as for the disease itself, I think you've got a valid point.


That makes two of us.
Several years ago, I joined a Yahoo group on "bug chasers" cause I was really interested in the mindset (from a clinical perspective).
The things they said were positively bat-**** crazy, IMO.

They said that they would brook no debate on the issue. If anybody spoke out against their mentality, they would eject them from the group.
It was a small group with low activity, and I never figured out the trolls from the serious people. And Yahoo shut down the group before I got to have my say. (I figured I would observe and then throw out a single post explaining how insane their comments were before I left).

I digress a little bit, but I empathize with your comment.
However, I do have to add that it REALLY depends upon the crowd you hang out with. I've been with my partner several years, and we hang out with a variety of other gay couples. One of our single gay friends is Republican, which we laugh about from time to time cause he shares most of the same values we have.
I think as human beings, we can often make relatively small differences seem big...



I know some people in a "three-way" relationship, and I really don't get it. I think it depends upon the person, and most people are just too innately "jealous" to be able to do it successfully.
And I don't think "jealousy" is always a bad thing. If a person is promising to do something for another, and expects the same in return, there is nothing wrong with that.
I've had a couple "open" relationships in the past too. Amusingly enough, the other guy started getting jealous of me doing exactly what he was doing.


It depends upon the person. Some people can do "open relationships".
Some can't, but like the freedom of them being able to have it.
And IMO, quite frankly some married couples have an implicit "open" relationship of quiet denial and looking the other way.
I have heard women make comments about men that just boggled my mind. How men were incapable of being faithful, indicating a very jaded past.
But these women WERE married, which means they could complain with thinly veiled comments, but they would stay married...


"open" relationships, with the partners ADMITTING what is going on? Yes.
"Open" relationships, where the partners recognize what exists in their marriage but never put a name to it, and never make an issue of the infidelity? I think that's more common to one degree or another.


True.
Dude. I've already made this post longer than I would have liked, but let's just say that being in the Navy was EYE-OPENING on multiple fronts.
Pattaya Beach Thailand is a "liberty port", and the only thing locally there is the prostitutes. And the Navy knows this, cause the corpsman was all prepared with an STD slide-show.

And having talked to some of the wives, when the husband leave port, it's often quite a similar thing. One husband came back to her wife pregnant of four months, and we had been to see for six.
She "persuaded" him it could medically happen. I never wanted to ask him what he really thought on the issue.



Not sure exactly what you're saying here.
I think some people (even gay) try to CLAIM a "gay lifestyle" that is supposed to define all gays.
They are very wrong.


Most gay couples I know are into the monogamy thing.
It all depends who you talk to.
I remember talking to one gay guy who thought gays were all shallow and incapable of relationships. Turns out that he simply meets all his relationships AT A TWINK BAR...

And quite frankly, with a 50% divorce rate, heterosexuals have their own problems of relationship maturity and stability as well.


In some ways, I thought "catch-22" from your description. (and I don't think that was your point)
We have to show our committed relationships as stable (I guess at least 50%, ) before we can get married. But how can we do that (and have it tracked) before we're allowed to marry...

And on another level, most people do not want other people nosing about their business. So when a gay couple is seen on TV, people don't know if they've been together two hours, or 20 years.
And for those people who routinely chastise and condemn gays, it's not like they're going to ask, or even really care.

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Republicans have a sweet racket because they run on "government is ineffective," and then when they **** things up, they go, "See." – Bill Maher

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint.
When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist."
--Dom Hélder Pessoa Câmara

I can sort of see where you're coming from.
But at the same time, I see no reason why gays should have to put themselves through rougher standards than straights do.
If a wife doesn't care if her husband cheats on business trips, that doesn't matter to their legal status. So why should it to gays, if it's actually openly stated in the relationship?

Straights have steadily and routinely gutted "marriage" and "divorce" from having any personal responsibility with misconduct. Adultery doesn't matter to "no fault divorce" states.

It's like if you had a black applicant for a job, and he satisfied all the regular sections, but then you had him take a diction test to see if he talked well enough...
Meanwhile, the previous applicant has a Southern drawl so thick that it's difficult to comprehend, and nobody thinks twice.

I personally think that it was wrong to make marriage into a couple joke where the circumstances of divorce don't matter. I would prefer it to be more solidified for monogamy against adultery.
But the straights have been lowering their standards all this time, and now gays have to meet higher standards before they are let in the club?
Fundamentally, there is something wrong with that.
Although logistically, I see a point to your comment.


I went to gay pride this year, in San Fran.
MOST of it was kosher (except for the gay ) thing.
But those guys who were walking around inappropriately undressed? They still annoy the hell out of me.
Those that walk around like it's Halloween? They annoy the hell out of me too.

Have you ever seen Bravo's "Rick & Steve"? They had a gay pride episode that touched on the gay extremists being exclusionary. You might get a kick out of it.

I think to do some of what ACT-Up did early on...
They NEEDED to be revolutionary.
But it's a pity that they didn't recognize your help for being help, even if they disagreed with other things like style.
When the first (1960's era) gay protestors went out to protest, they MADE A POINT of showing people that they were just like everybody else. The only way you would have known that the guy in the suit was gay was cause he was carrying a sign saying "I am gay and deserve equal rights". It made a point.
Today's crowd can lose that point.


ROFLMAO!
You're a bigot who has done more volunteering for gays than a LOT of gays...



Redacted only for brevity of this post. I recommend people go back and read Kizzume's original.
To answer your question. VERY.

I can't help but think of Harvey Milk. He took on the anti-gay teacher's measure in California in much the same way you did.
The other way would not have gotten results.
Quite frankly, the dishonesty of the anti-gay side annoys me. And the people that disrupted your point fail to recognize how they play into the anti-gay side's approach.

For example, if you use the word "bigot", then suddenly the argument is endlessly distracted by the people who are opposing gay adoption / gay employment protection / gay civil unions by their endless complaints about how they don't want to be called bigots. (And in some cases, it's not an accurate label IMO)
The anti-gay side paint themselves as the victim, instead of the fact that they want to stop equality being the issue.
P Hilton is an excellent example of somebody who played into the anti-gay hands. ONE idiot blogger mouths off, and suddenly the "anti-gay marriage" movement spends THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of dollars talking about how awful it is that gays bash them.

When most gays wanted P Hilton to STFU up!


Seriously.
Rick & Steve. Gay Pride episode. "Swallowing Pride"
Rick & Steve: Swallowing Pride > Overview - AllMovie
If you get a chance, please see it. I think you'll love it.


I disagree on "NO push in the straight community to allow for “open marriages”".
When they stripped "adultery" of having any punitive issue in divorce, it's the same "look the other way" thing.
The straights just don't talk about it like the gays do.


Haha. I think you're on the wrong board for that.
I wouldn't be surprised if the routine "pro-gay" posters on this board will have little problem with your comments.
I know of a couple gay posters on other boards who might ruffle their feathers over your comments.

Gawd. I really wish I could put a copy of that Rick and Steve episode in your hands. I think you would finish watching it with the thought "That's what I'm talking about!"

__________________
Republicans have a sweet racket because they run on "government is ineffective," and then when they **** things up, they go, "See." – Bill Maher

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint.
When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a Communist."
--Dom Hélder Pessoa Câmara

as you seem to apply the same standard to straight couples as gay couples, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

though, where you live where gays are doing all this public display of affection is a huge question for me. I live in New Haven, CT - land of the uber Liberals - and there are very Very VERY few gay couples I've seen even holding hands, let alone kissing.

Where do you live with all these public displays?

In most places in America, gays still get bashed for that.

P.S. I don't believe you have a right to not be offended or grossed out ... if so, they wouldn't produce spandex in larger than size 2.

__________________
"No man is happy without a delusion of some kind. Delusions are as necessary to our happiness as realities."
...Christian Nestell Bovee