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Open Discussion Discuss What our weapons to Ukraine should do at the General Forum; Earlier today, I heard the former Undersecretary of the Navy--I forget his name--suggesting that we should not merely sell Ukraine ...

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Old 07-12-2022, 05:50 PM
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Default What our weapons to Ukraine should do

Earlier today, I heard the former Undersecretary of the Navy--I forget his name--suggesting that we should not merely sell Ukraine those weapons that will repel Russia; but that we should sell it weapons that will militarily defeat Russia--decisively--on the battlefield.

Comments?
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Old 07-12-2022, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: What our weapons to Ukraine should do

We're in a precarious situation where caution is the byword.
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Old 07-13-2022, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: What our weapons to Ukraine should do

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
We're in a precarious situation where caution is the byword.
I am not much worried about any potential war with Russia.

For one thing, I believe that there is really less than a one-percent chance that selling Ukraine such weapons would start such a war.

And for another, I seriously doubt that any such war--if it were even to come to fruition (which is highly unlikely)--would involve nuclear weapons. (Russia is no more eager to involve itself in a nuclear war than we are.)

A conventional war, by contrast, is one that Russia could probably not win, given the fact that its military seems rather inept and weak, as the conflict with Ukraine has revealed.
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Old 07-13-2022, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: What our weapons to Ukraine should do

We should not sell, or give, Ukraine a single weapon, not even a slingshot.
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Old 07-14-2022, 05:39 AM
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Default Re: What our weapons to Ukraine should do

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Earlier today, I heard the former Undersecretary of the Navy--I forget his name--suggesting that we should not merely sell Ukraine those weapons that will repel Russia; but that we should sell it weapons that will militarily defeat Russia--decisively--on the battlefield.

Comments?
Ukraine and Russia are not our business. We should not sell or give any weapons to Ukraine. Lets say someone is throwing rocks at you and you see me handing rocks to the guy who is throwing rocks at you. Are you going to not worry about me? Common sense would dictate you would take out the rock supplier. Sure Russia may not want a nuclear war with us or so the dirty neocons tell us. But what is to stop Russia to having an ally send in some terrorist?
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Old 07-14-2022, 08:57 AM
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Default Re: What our weapons to Ukraine should do

Specifically what weapons are suggested to enable the Ukrainians to win? Do we deploy American advisors to show them how to operate the wonder weapons? Are the Ukrainians going to pay for these weapons? We are sending them $60 billion in aid they could give a rebate to good old Uncle Sucker.

Wonder why the Ukraine isn't such a hot topic for the media anymore? After the initial failures Putin did what Biden won't do after the Afghanistan debacle, he fired the incompetent generals responsible for the botched invasion. The new leadership has refocused the war effort and concentrated forces resulting in the Ukrainians having to go on the defense. Bluntly, the Ukrainians are losing.

But hey, it's doubtful the successful Russian generals know or even care about "white rage" so they fail Biden’s most important criteria.
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Old 07-14-2022, 11:46 AM
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Default Re: What our weapons to Ukraine should do

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
I am not much worried about any potential war with Russia.

For one thing, I believe that there is really less than a one-percent chance that selling Ukraine such weapons would start such a war.

And for another, I seriously doubt that any such war--if it were even to come to fruition (which is highly unlikely)--would involve nuclear weapons. (Russia is no more eager to involve itself in a nuclear war than we are.)

A conventional war, by contrast, is one that Russia could probably not win, given the fact that its military seems rather inept and weak, as the conflict with Ukraine has revealed.
I'm not sure why your "belief" in less than 1% should sway anyone.
especially since you don't say what it's based on.

but your last bit is interesting,
You don't think Russia could win a conventional war with US..
Even though it doesn't look like to me that Russia is going FULL TILT at this point in Ukraine.
But i'm not sure how you think we could defeat Russia when we couldn't even defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan, with a 20 year war, and that with NATO help.

But Ok lets say that somehow the U.S. & allies can "conventionally" defeat Russia. (with the untold trillions added to U.S. debt and 10s of thousands of US. lives tossed on the fire... for Ukraine (the most corrupt state in the region))
Have you considered that if Russia faced defeat "conventionally" that they may resort to nukes... or other WMDs?

And if China steps in? will it be on our side?
What then?
I wouldn't be surprised if China fueled booth sides in such a war and would be left like the U.S. after WW2. the world superpower.
as Europe, Russia & the U.S. would have beaten each other near to death.


Sorry, the risk are far to great.
And Ukraine is Not a puppet state worth dying over.
I say we've done too much already.
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Old 07-14-2022, 01:49 PM
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Default Re: What our weapons to Ukraine should do

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
Lets say someone is throwing rocks at you and you see me handing rocks to the guy who is throwing rocks at you. Are you going to not worry about me?
Well, we have been supplying Ukraine with Stingers, Javelins, and other other weapons of war.

So what is the fundamental difference in principle here?

(That is, unless you believe that the US is okay if it just helps Ukraine to lose more slowly.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
Sure Russia may not want a nuclear war with us or so the dirty neocons tell us. But what is to stop Russia to having an ally send in some terrorist?
Fair question.

But we should communicate to the Russian leaders--unequivocally!--that if the US is struck by a nuclear weapon of unknown origin, we will just assume that Russia is behind it--and respond accordingly.
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Old 07-14-2022, 01:53 PM
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Default Re: What our weapons to Ukraine should do

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Specifically what weapons are suggested to enable the Ukrainians to win?
I would supply them with whatever weapons they request, short of nukes. (And I seriously doubt that they would request these, anyway.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Bluntly, the Ukrainians are losing.
Yes, they are.

And I wish to do whatever it takes (short of nukes or the infusion of American troops) to reverse that.
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Old 07-14-2022, 02:04 PM
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Default Re: What our weapons to Ukraine should do

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
I'm not sure why your "belief" in less than 1% should sway anyone.
Well, if someone else's "belief" is far more than that, is there really some reason why we should consider it weightier (unless he or she is an expert on the subject)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
You don't think Russia could win a conventional war with US..
Even though it doesn't look like to me that Russia is going FULL TILT at this point in Ukraine.
But i'm not sure how you think we could defeat Russia when we couldn't even defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan, with a 20 year war, and that with NATO help.
Of course we could have defeated the Taliban in Afghanistan.

President Biden simply thought it would be a terrific idea to turn tail, and run...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
But Ok lets say that somehow the U.S. & allies can "conventionally" defeat Russia. (with the untold trillions added to U.S. debt and 10s of thousands of US. lives tossed on the fire... for Ukraine (the most corrupt state in the region))
Have you considered that if Russia faced defeat "conventionally" that they may resort to nukes... or other WMDs?
That would be really stupid: It would amount to cutting off one's nose just to spite one's face.

Why would they wish to increase their losses--exponentially--even if they also inflicted similar losses upon the US and Europe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
And if China steps in? will it be on our side?
I think you know the answer to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Ukraine is Not a puppet state worth dying over.
The defeat of totalitarianism is worth just about anything.

I am certainly not an isolationist (the euphemism "non-interventionist" is preferred by some), who just wishes to pretend that the US can safely withdraw to its own borders, and pretend that nothing of any significance--to this country, anyway--is happening elsewhere in the world.
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