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Open Discussion Discuss Pre-emptive war? at the General Forum; Originally Posted by mr wonder realpoltik is not where we as a nation pretend to live on the world stage. ...

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 08-31-2021, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: Pre-emptive war?

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
realpoltik is not where we as a nation pretend to live on the world stage.
But again if pragmatism is the REAL basis for a war with China then I'm not sure why civilians lives really matter. If they'll help get the message across then realpolitik says get-r-done.
Ideology and Ethics/Morals and world opinion be d@mned.
Being in Power ... the "SuperPower" is the main thing.
That sounds much more like an attempt (and not a very good one, at that) to just win an argument, rather than to carefully consider the facts.

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BTW you seem to want to create an ethical distinction. the people of China vs the gov't of China.
Do you not suppose that such a distinction should exist?

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ALTERNATIVELY if we want the U.S. to pretend to ourselves and the rest of the world that we are "Good Guys". Or if we REALLY want to act ethically and morally in our foreign policy, THEN we should NOT be attacking other countries militarily becasue of what we FEAR they MIGHT do or MIGHT become someday maybe.
It is hardly a question of what the Chinese government "MIGHT" do in the future. [Caps in original]

It is currently stealing our secrets.

Moreover, I am not really sure if it released the Covid-19 virus intentionally--probably the most plausible theory that I have heard is that it was not developed as a bio-weapon; but once it got out, the Chinese government did not wish for its country to be alone in its ill effects, so it passed it along to the rest of the world--and if this were to be proven (I am not really sure just how that might be done), that would certainly constitute an act of war, it seems to me.

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The Idea that they are militarily "AGGRESSIVE" and are going to eat our lunch any minute is a weird paranoia. Based on nothing.
And your evidence of this would be...

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[S]o if a neighborhood thief has been going into your garage once a week has been going into your garage once a week, can we do anything to fix that? Short of[/I][/B] shooting at his house setting his trucks on fire and killing suspected family members?
A major country's aggressive military policy--including even its parading of all its new military equipment every year--is hardly analogous to "a neighborhood thief" who "has been going into your garage once a week."

In fact, forget about its military--we will stick to the subject of stealing secrets--I would suggest that those secrets are far more valuable than anything that might be found in anyone's garage.
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Old 08-31-2021, 11:01 PM
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Default Re: Pre-emptive war?

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
That sounds much more like an attempt (and not a very good one, at that) to just win an argument, rather than to carefully consider the facts.



Do you not suppose that such a distinction should exist?



It is hardly a question of what the Chinese government "MIGHT" do in the future. [Caps in original]

It is currently stealing our secrets.

Moreover, I am not really sure if it released the Covid-19 virus intentionally--probably the most plausible theory that I have heard is that it was not developed as a bio-weapon; but once it got out, the Chinese government did not wish for its country to be alone in its ill effects, so it passed it along to the rest of the world--and if this were to be proven (I am not really sure just how that might be done), that would certainly constitute an act of war, it seems to me.



And your evidence of this would be...



A major country's aggressive military policy--including even its parading of all its new military equipment every year--is hardly analogous to "a neighborhood thief" who "has been going into your garage once a week."

In fact, forget about its military--we will stick to the subject of stealing secrets--I would suggest that those secrets are far more valuable than anything that might be found in anyone's garage.
we have state of the art cyber security. but even if e did not, I can't see staring a war over it. We could use our trade partner status as we are still the largest consumer market.
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Old 09-01-2021, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: Pre-emptive war?

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
That sounds much more like an attempt (and not a very good one, at that) to just win an argument, rather than to carefully consider the facts.
well you haven't really presented many facts.
what facts do you think folks should consider.

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Do you not suppose that such a distinction should exist?
When it comes to killing someone who hasn't attacked you, no.


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It is hardly a question of what the Chinese government "MIGHT" do in the future. [Caps in original]
It is currently stealing our secrets.

Moreover, I am not really sure if it released the Covid-19 virus intentionally--probably the most plausible theory that I have heard is that it was not developed as a bio-weapon; but once it got out, the Chinese government did not wish for its country to be alone in its ill effects, so it passed it along to the rest of the world--and if this were to be proven (I am not really sure just how that might be done), that would certainly constitute an act of war, it seems to me.
Stealing secrets is what many gov't do. And many big corporations. It's not an act of war.
But IF it could be proven that the Chinese intentionally released a bio weapon on the world, THAT would be considered an act of war. China would be the Aggressor that killed people. and it would not be a PRE-Emptive WAR.

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And your evidence of this would be...
You're the one that's claimed that China is militarily aggressive. and wants to devour the U.S. and more.
You should present evidence of this.

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
A major country's aggressive military policy--including even its parading of all its new military equipment every year--is hardly analogous to "a neighborhood thief" who "has been going into your garage once a week."
So far you've only pointed out that they have added to their military capability. Which is not an act of "aggression". Unless we're a bit paranoid.
Every country adds to their military. And I think China is still FAR behind us in every way except manpower.

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In fact, forget about its military--we will stick to the subject of stealing secrets--I would suggest that those secrets are far more valuable than anything that might be found in anyone's garage.
As i said before, are we so helpless that we can't protect our secrets with better security? Many countries steal secrets from us. Israel has been caught doing so, should we have Pre-Emptive war with Israel?
Also if they are stealing our secrets doesn't that means we're still ahead of them in those areas? So our leadership status is intact right?
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Old 09-01-2021, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: Pre-emptive war?

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Every country adds to their military. And I think China is still FAR behind us in every way except manpower.
But not just "[e]very country" parades around its military hardware, in an obvious (and intimidating) show of force.

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Israel has been caught doing so, should we have Pre-Emptive war with Israel?
Yes, it has been, indeed.

But I am not really so concerned--not nearly so concerned--with an ally's doing so as with an adversary's doing so.

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Also if they are stealing our secrets doesn't that means we're still ahead of them in those areas?
For the moment.

But not for long, given their thievery.
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