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Open Discussion Discuss Update in case you missed the memo at the General Forum; Originally Posted by mr wonder Not sure what assumptions you're referring to ....or that assuming I'm making exactly. My suggestions ...

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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2020, 08:21 PM
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Default Re: Update in case you missed the memo

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Not sure what assumptions you're referring to ....or that assuming I'm making exactly.

My suggestions specifically was that lack of Church attendance may explain your lack of awareness of the factual basis of parts of the Biblical text. That's it. .
I wasn't questioning your faith or piety. I'm not now.

Stating you views with confidence is fine.
I do the same.
And based on what you wrote, It just seems to me that you lack some vital new information and/or you have biases against aspects of the Biblical text.




Sorry, i didn't mean to imply that Church attendance was the only path information concerning faith and the bible. not at all.
And I'm glad and impressed that you've studied into the subjects.
However I have to mention, I know people who have gone to seminary and LOST their faith.
Based on the type of "education" they received. An education that was based more on philosophy, modern psychology, and secular sciences and liberal theology which discounts most of the Bible as fable by default.

I make NO assumptions here about your education Franc.
But i will say that for myself what I studied as a interested layman 30 years ago about the Bible and it's historical basis and the sciences was FAR less compelling than what i've grown aware over in the 15 years.
It's frankly breath takingly compelling confirmations.
Compelling in the sense that I'm left with really no good reason's why I should doubt ANYthing the Bible teaches.
As long as i understand it as it's been presented. As poetry, parable, or history etc...

Are there still questions? SURE. But for me, on every subject, the Scriptural foundation appears to be the best ground to stand, to even ask the questions from.



But if you can't trust it, how do you really know what the message is?
And if you can't quote it, where exactly are you getting "the message" from?


I had to look up what "Misology" meant.
"Misology is defined as the hatred of reasoning; the revulsion or distrust of logical debate, argumentation, or the Socratic method."

Hopefully you don't think that someone who believes the Bible or quotes the Bible is devoid of reason, illogical or by default uneducated and walking in "blind faith".


well i guess you'll put me that category then.
However here's the thing, I believe i understand "the message" of Jonah and the fish. It's very explicit at the end.
But i don't see anything that "DEFIES LOGIC" about what happen in the account.
is the account fantastic? yes absolutely. illogical? uh no. Impossible? No.

Seems very reasonable to me that a God who made the universe would have ZERO problem making a fish to swallow a man and spit him up on land 3 days later.
As far as Jonah living in the fish? Well, who said he lived? Not the text. How many people died and God raised them from the dead?
Jesus himself said
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
It's a debatable point to be sure. Did Jonah Die and was raised OR was he miraculously kept alive? Neither option is "illogical". there's no Logical problem. IF you believe God can do what he likes.

However If one assumes that God does NOT do any/many miracles, Or only miracles that SOUND reasonable and logical to them... then yes there's may SEEM to be a problem.


Both stories teach about faith, Yes. AND if understood as written show God's powers, mercy and faithfulness in history.
it's not an either or question it seems to me.

as far as Abaham Goes God never allowed anyone to sacrifice their children. and ONLY by reading (quoting) the text do we understand WHY we no longer sacrifice lambs.


Never questioned your faith, I questioned your view of the Bible.


Agreed


I'm not sure what you mean by "that".
If "That" is the sentence you wrote about "belief in Him and His Son" and "living life as best we can" " born sinners".?
then, yes, I'd agree that's primary. The thief on the cross knew about that much.
I'm glad you're there! AMEN
But still, I have a difficult time understanding how your view of the Bible gets you there. if i can't trust it outright, and it's "Illogical" where it's goes out of a zone or it's strays from popular secular or theological views.
The Bible seems more like a BUFFET that you're can picking and choosing from.
GEEZ how some go all over the map on this subject. Your "Logic" goes everywhere.

In the context of what I was describing, cults and political parties, misology was appropriate.
To mention some seminary students lose their faith is off the subject. I didn't. In fact my faith was stronger. Because of revelations, (in my soul not the book) my life purpose had changed.

As for the bolded, you're citing scriptures and preaching to the choir. More on that later in this post.

However If one assumes that God does NOT do any/many miracles, Or only miracles that SOUND reasonable and logical to them... then yes there's may SEEM to be a problem.
Here you inject a proposition based on nothing I ever said. WTH?

My view of the Bible is quite logical. No disrespect intended to those fundamentalist who believe every word to be factual. It is entirely possible they are right, and the real world we see, and in which we live, may in fact be a clever devilish illusion.

But for a book to have been translated hundreds of times of a history of God's people recording events back tour 7,000 year existence as modern Homo sapiens, is a bit much to prove ad irrefutable fact in every word.
Here's a troubling fact of which you and I experience in our relatively short lives as compared to man's history. he meaning of words change. Pull one word from a scripture, alter it's meaning to contemporary terms and see if the meaning of the phase remains the same.

The Gospel is the word yes, but I doubt ever word of the gospel is actually factual. Instead, the book, it's stories, it's telling's, it's wisdoms, it's examples are a clear guide to truths.

We have trouble with even the most modern parts of the Biblical renditions. Our church leaders allow showing the Cross as two posts one vertical one horizontal lashed or spiked together and for centuries framed it as one unit Christ carried through the streets of Jerusalem to the top of the hill. Such is in fact, the symbol of our faith.

Yet it is entirely incorrect. Christ bore only the horizontal "rail" to which he was lashed and later nailed. The cross was not raise with him on it but the rail pulled to the top of the permanent post.

It is minor and arguable what actually comprised the cross of which Christ was nailed. But the little details are likely magnified a thousand time in a thousand ways throughout the Bible.

Cutting to the heart of the matter, understand, the little details are unimportant to the whole message of the Book. And yet the placement of commas and other punctuations may well, at the same time, be significant.

It is quite illogical to place rigid validity on every single word or relation of events when in fact they are little more than news accounts from the perspective of the reporters. On the other hand, it is quite logical to believe the meanings of the gospel in their whole.

Like so many valuable writings, each part does not stand scrutiny alone but all stand as stone together.


You are welcome to dissect the text of the Bible all you want. Just as you dissected my postings so the overall meanings were erased. Out of context makes them vulnerable. And manipulative. But hardly proof they are universally factual.

The Gospel is a fact in and of itself. It's writings have change the world. Also our relationships to each other and our God. All for the better overall.

Jesus told parables. Were they stories of fiction or factual accounts. No matter.

To put it simply, the story of Jonah, no matter how one tries to explain it's possibility, is likely not a factual account. The lesson is.


Blessed is the word. One need not dissect it to believe. Better to live it.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2020, 07:20 AM
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Default Re: Update in case you missed the memo

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
GEEZ how some go all over the map on this subject. Your "Logic" goes everywhere.

In the context of what I was describing, cults and political parties, misology was appropriate.
So you brought up cults and political parties out o of the blue, in the context of a discussion about the "blind faith" and people believing the veracity of the bible.
Sorry if i misunderstood you that meant one had nothing to do with the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post

However If one assumes that God does NOT do any/many miracles, Or only miracles that SOUND reasonable and logical to them... then yes there's may SEEM to be a problem.

Here you inject a proposition based on nothing I ever said. WTH?
you said you thought the story of Jonah was illogical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
My view of the Bible is quite logical. No disrespect intended to those fundamentalist who believe every word to be factual. It is entirely possible they are right, and the real world we see, and in which we live, may in fact be a clever devilish illusion.
Why must one be real and the other a devilish illusion.
this is what throws me off here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
But for a book to have been translated hundreds of times of a history of God's people recording events back tour 7,000 year existence as modern Homo sapiens, is a bit much to prove ad irrefutable fact in every word.
Here's a troubling fact of which you and I experience in our relatively short lives as compared to man's history. he meaning of words change. Pull one word from a scripture, alter it's meaning to contemporary terms and see if the meaning of the phase remains the same.
It's a bit much to disprove them as well.
And again it seems you might be discounting God's hand in keeping the stories in line with the facts. and have left it all in the hands of "men".


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
The Gospel is the word yes, but I doubt ever word of the gospel is actually factual. Instead, the book, it's stories, it's telling's, it's wisdoms, it's examples are a clear guide to truths.
Every study bible you pick up has notes in it that address various translation and textual features that are in dispute or in question. None of those point to ideas that would put in question aspect of the Bible that you seem to put outside the realm of "facts" and "logic" and the "the "real world"
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
We have trouble with even the most modern parts of the Biblical renditions. Our church leaders allow showing the Cross as two posts one vertical one horizontal lashed or spiked together and for centuries framed it as one unit Christ carried through the streets of Jerusalem to the top of the hill. Such is in fact, the symbol of our faith.

Yet it is entirely incorrect. Christ bore only the horizontal "rail" to which he was lashed and later nailed. The cross was not raise with him on it but the rail pulled to the top of the permanent post.
OK, this detail is not even a feature of the biblical text focuses on. Church tradition, paintings and symbols are one thing and the biblical text are another. Again , it's an question of going further than the text allows or not taking it as it's stated that causes problems and sometimes confusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
It is minor and arguable what actually comprised the cross of which Christ was nailed. But the little details are likely magnified a thousand time in a thousand ways throughout the Bible.
Church traditions, paintings and symbols are one thing and the biblical text are another. the detail you mention here is NOT an item in dispute IN the bible.
and the assumption that the issues like is "likely magnified a thousand time in a thousand ways throughout the Bible" seems a pretty LOW view of the bible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Cutting to the heart of the matter, understand, the little details are unimportant to the whole message of the Book. And yet the placement of commas and other punctuations may well, at the same time, be significant.
It is quite illogical to place rigid validity on every single word or relation of events when in fact they are little more than news accounts from the perspective of the reporters. On the other hand, it is quite logical to believe the meanings of the gospel in their whole.
ooo kkkk sure. but a "problems are likely magnified a thousand time in a thousand ways throughout the Bible" doesn't give one much confidence about any reports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Like so many valuable writings, each part does not stand scrutiny alone but all stand as stone together.
True to point.
but the Bible isn't like any other valuable writing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
You are welcome to dissect the text of the Bible all you want. Just as you dissected my postings so the overall meanings were erased. Out of context makes them vulnerable. And manipulative. But hardly proof they are universally factual.
Does your commentary PROVE that they are universally NOT factual?


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
The Gospel is a fact in and of itself. It's writings have change the world. Also our relationships to each other and our God. All for the better overall.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Jesus told parables. Were they stories of fiction or factual accounts. No matter.
some were obviously fiction some were possibly facts. he never said that any of them had to be taken as fact. Other aspects of the scripture are NOT presented as parable they are presented as historical. And it does matter. as they are presented as basis for God's authority and foundational reasons WHY things are the way they are today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
To put it simply, the story of Jonah, no matter how one tries to explain it's possibility, is likely not a factual account. The lesson is.
Why is not LIKELY a factual account?
What in the text itself would lead a reader to that conclusion.
Why should we assume that it's not? Other than our own incredulity?

bottom line the account either happen as stated or it did not. and it's just a "parable" about a fake prophet and a real city. If we have a 2ndary interest in the whole truth and in history it's something to consider.

But someone's belief in the factual nature of the account of Jonah possibly won't make much difference to many people faith wise. However I'm not sure how discounting it by default ....and thousands of other biblical accounts.... HELPS someone's faith either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Blessed is the word. One need not dissect it to believe. Better to live it.
True there's no need to dissect to believe, but thinking there are "problems" likely magnified a thousand time in a thousand ways throughout the Bible" that you have to sift through to get to the parts you are supposed to live seems a bit odd to me as well.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2020, 10:07 AM
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Default Re: Update in case you missed the memo

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Boy do we disagree about faith.


First I do not believe, as you have suggested, that it is an assumption that some pleasing fantasies exist and are therefore true. NEVER said anything to suggest that. Nor did I say it must be proven by "evidence."

Which is exactly my point.

Christ did explain it perfectly in his post Resurrection meeting with the apostle Thomas. Or did you miss that. Please note, as is my custom I will not cite the passage despite having a copy of the good book on my desk. This one happens to be a King James version.

The jist of Christ's words were that Thomas was lucky he could feel the nail holes in the hands of Jesus. But future believers would have to trust "on Faith" that the story was true.

This is only one clue in a personal search for the truth and ultimate trust in faith. One brick, of many, in the unshakable wall of mine.

Are you with me yet?

Faith needing evidence to be believed is not really faith at all.

Do you yet understand?

Short of being personally told by aliens ,who arrive 2026 to tell us we are all lab rats and the story of Christ was just one of their ruse's, is about the only event that will shake my faith. Hopefully, even that won't separate me from the Lord's grace.

Do you get it?

Paul of all people, denied Christ the night of the Son's arrest and judgement by man.

Without "evidence" to the contrary, will you?
It was Peter that denied Christ on the eve of crucifixion. He was later forgiven illustrating the power of divine grace under Jesus Christ.

Saul of Tarsus led a violent mob dedicated to stamping out Christianity by any means necessary including beatings and murder. On the road to Damascus our Lord intervened to convert him into Paul arguably the second most important figure in the New Testament.

After triumphing over death Jesus walked the earth for 40 days being seen by thousands. That is why the way the stone was rolled back from the tomb might be interesting but isn't dispositive to the question of Jesus being the Christ.
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Old 10-27-2020, 10:40 AM
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Default Re: Update in case you missed the memo

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
It was Peter that denied Christ on the eve of crucifixion. He was later forgiven illustrating the power of divine grace under Jesus Christ.

Saul of Tarsus led a violent mob dedicated to stamping out Christianity by any means necessary including beatings and murder. On the road to Damascus our Lord intervened to convert him into Paul arguably the second most important figure in the New Testament.

After triumphing over death Jesus walked the earth for 40 days being seen by thousands. That is why the way the stone was rolled back from the tomb might be interesting but isn't dispositive to the question of Jesus being the Christ.
Thanks for the correction. My mind was on Paul's words that started this whole argument. I forgot before the cock crowed, Peter denied him three times.

A mix up of names, not events. Thanks.

Of one thing I am happy about at the age of 73. I know my mind is goin. Fortunately, my integrity and faith were well established years ago, and lived by. So that burdened with a softened mind, I do not have to make choices about either.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:27 AM
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Default Re: Update in case you missed the memo

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
It was Peter that denied Christ on the eve of crucifixion. He was later forgiven illustrating the power of divine grace under Jesus Christ.

Saul of Tarsus led a violent mob dedicated to stamping out Christianity by any means necessary including beatings and murder. On the road to Damascus our Lord intervened to convert him into Paul arguably the second most important figure in the New Testament.

After triumphing over death Jesus walked the earth for 40 days being seen by thousands. That is why the way the stone was rolled back from the tomb might be interesting but isn't dispositive to the question of Jesus being the Christ.
Agreed, the difference is the AMOUNT of evidence, not that there is NO evidence.

Thomas, said he would not believe unless he put his hand into Jesus's side.
Other disciple's had already believed the women's words.

And I will quote Jesus and the text here.
so as not to give my IDEA of what was said... and that the text isn't changed over time. Problems that Franc mentions could occur if people just try to pass ideas along loosely.

"Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

John goes on to say
"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: "But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might have life through his name." "After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias... "
This is what courts call eye witness testimony. Otherwise known as evidence. Some think it's to much to call it "proof". fine.
But for every other event in history --- recent and ancient-- the writings of witnesses, archeological artifacts, geology and corroborating historical ripples, are the only "proofs" available.

there's a former atheists who was a cold case police detective. he decided to approach his research of gospels using his skills as a cold cases investigator in an attempt to disprove them. He found he could not, and became convinced of their historical veracity. And added FAITH to his reasoned conclusion based on the evidence and became a Christian.

Many people do not need that level of study or confirmation. It's there for those that'd like to look.

Whether or not anyone believes any of the various testimonies of history is another story.

But it's not simply "blind faith" and the historicity being an unneeded sideshow.


And AZ you referred to Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:
"...By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas (Peter), and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born...
... But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile;..."
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