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Old 01-23-2020, 07:21 PM
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Default The fault line concerning abortion

I seriously doubt that we will come to any consensus as concerning the ethical (or non-ethical) nature of abortion-on-demand--at least, anytime within this generation. So I will not approach the matter directly.

But I will ask this:

Do others agree that one's stance on the matter is really determined by whether one believes that our country should be entirely (and unapologetically) secular, or should be underpinned by Judeo-Christian thought?

To reiterate, I am not asking for a re-litigation of the matter. I am merely asking if others would agree that this is the fault line.
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Old 01-23-2020, 08:06 PM
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Default Re: The fault line concerning abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
I seriously doubt that we will come to any consensus as concerning the ethical (or non-ethical) nature of abortion-on-demand--at least, anytime within this generation. So I will not approach the matter directly.

But I will ask this:

Do others agree that one's stance on the matter is really determined by whether one believes that our country should be entirely (and unapologetically) secular, or should be underpinned by Judeo-Christian thought?

To reiterate, I am not asking for a re-litigation of the matter. I am merely asking if others would agree that this is the fault line.
I'm not sure it's a religious matter for me as far as the law goes. Personally yes, but as a citizen, I just think it is a big misstep to kill off the unborn just as it would be a terrible policy to be nonchalant about killing the newly born.
That is a stumble down the stairs for any society imho.
Thankfully the way the law is written I don't know why a person is getting any abortion. I think it should be done in hospital, not at a 'clinic'; that's a little too much for me to accept. But if I knew a person was doing it for convenience only, I would be against it for reasons I stated above.
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Old 01-24-2020, 12:23 AM
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Default Re: The fault line concerning abortion

Is there something about religion that suggests it is the only way people can understand it is not good to murder the innocent for convenience?
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Old 01-24-2020, 01:07 AM
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Default Re: The fault line concerning abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
I seriously doubt that we will come to any consensus as concerning the ethical (or non-ethical) nature of abortion-on-demand--at least, anytime within this generation. So I will not approach the matter directly.

But I will ask this:

Do others agree that one's stance on the matter is really determined by whether one believes that our country should be entirely (and unapologetically) secular, or should be underpinned by Judeo-Christian thought?

To reiterate, I am not asking for a re-litigation of the matter. I am merely asking if others would agree that this is the fault line.
It doesn't need to be Judeo Christian values underpinning a pro-Life position. To blame a religion for any virtue, one must also accept blame for any evil done by that same religious justification. The sanctity of life is universally accepted by most men/women of good will no matter their religious preferences. It is a humanitarian quality to preserve our progeny.

What value is there in a person, or society, that finds happiness in the selfish narcissism that justifies taking an innocent's life? Such belief is a cousin to the morality that justifies one person to enslave another or worse one nation to enslave others. To rape, or steal, or kill another without remorse.

All such malady comes from the same selfish evil that is in the DNA of mankind when he purposely overlooks his better nature.
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Old 01-24-2020, 01:18 AM
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Default Re: The fault line concerning abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
I'm not sure it's a religious matter for me as far as the law goes. Personally yes, but as a citizen, I just think it is a big misstep to kill off the unborn just as it would be a terrible policy to be nonchalant about killing the newly born.
That is a stumble down the stairs for any society imho.
Thankfully the way the law is written I don't know why a person is getting any abortion. I think it should be done in hospital, not at a 'clinic'; that's a little too much for me to accept. But if I knew a person was doing it for convenience only, I would be against it for reasons I stated above.
As I have stated before many times, my personal problem with abortion law, as it stands today in the USA, would be that it is the sole right of one person to decide, in a moment, to take an innocent life. That defies everything in our justice system.

No one person should ever have that singular, and unquestioned, responsibility
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Old 01-24-2020, 06:03 AM
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Default Re: The fault line concerning abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
I seriously doubt that we will come to any consensus as concerning the ethical (or non-ethical) nature of abortion-on-demand--at least, anytime within this generation. So I will not approach the matter directly.

But I will ask this:

Do others agree that one's stance on the matter is really determined by whether one believes that our country should be entirely (and unapologetically) secular, or should be underpinned by Judeo-Christian thought?

To reiterate, I am not asking for a re-litigation of the matter. I am merely asking if others would agree that this is the fault line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitou View Post
Is there something about religion that suggests it is the only way people can understand it is not good to murder the innocent for convenience?
Manitou summed it up nicely.
When you look at it Morals ... the foundation for laws... the ONLY basis is "religion".
In the west case Judea-Christian "religion" / values.

SECULAR thought has no universal standard for morality or Law. Bottom line Anything goes. the whim of leadership become law. (whether monarchy/dictatorship to pure democracy.)
Various cultures have believed it's perfectly fine to kill babies and children. From the Romans and Greeks to some Native American nations.

Of course every culture and person has a general moral notions but they are arbitrary and frankly LOWER than the Judea-Christian ethic.
the morals declared by Moses, the prophets and Jesus are pretty much universally understood to be the high water mark and the aspiration of human ethics.
Attempts at "improvements" or alternatives by pure secularist have rung hollow and attempts at secular implementation of those alternatives have in some case turned into horror shows. For example the French revolution , the communism of Marx via Stalin and Mao.

the Biblical ethic AT BASE start with the fact that GOD is the Only perfect one.
After that ideas about humanity. 1st that all humans are IN FACT one family.
That each person has an inherent dignity. That each person has a tendency to corruption that must be kept in check personally and corporately. Corporately 1st via Family (family= 1 woman 1 man at base), then the larger community.
That Humans are the head of the earth and are ultimately responsible for it's maintenance and wise use. But should not abuses it's resources or wildlife. (honor God in work and use)

With those as basic framework, the moral law is repeatedly summed up in the phase
"love your neighbor as yourself."
"that is the whole of the law."
(the unborn child is human, therefore your neighbor...)

With that simple outline a person's and a nation's moral decisions and laws can operate optimally.
without it. nations and people are left with morals and laws drifting from variations on dictatorship or supposed "pragmatism" or scientific fads or cultural/gang trends/traditions or some combo.

the Christian ethic... while not always practiced optimally... is the best outline for personal morals and law.
In fact, rationally speaking, there is no foundation for ANY other.
If there is no God, then there is no real law or morals. It's all just opinions. And groups that manage to get there's implemented.
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Old 01-24-2020, 09:26 AM
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Default Re: The fault line concerning abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
I'm not sure it's a religious matter for me as far as the law goes. Personally yes, but as a citizen, I just think it is a big misstep to kill off the unborn just as it would be a terrible policy to be nonchalant about killing the newly born.
That is a stumble down the stairs for any society imho.
Thankfully the way the law is written I don't know why a person is getting any abortion. I think it should be done in hospital, not at a 'clinic'; that's a little too much for me to accept. But if I knew a person was doing it for convenience only, I would be against it for reasons I stated above.
I agree with most of this.

However, when I speak of Judeo-Christian underpinnings, I really do not intend to suggest that it is "a religious matter." Even irreligious people (or Hindus, Buddhists, or Muslims) may accept those underpinnings as being entirely valid.
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Old 01-24-2020, 09:56 AM
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Default Re: The fault line concerning abortion

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
As I have stated before many times, my personal problem with abortion law, as it stands today in the USA, would be that it is the sole right of one person to decide, in a moment, to take an innocent life. That defies everything in our justice system.

No one person should ever have that singular, and unquestioned, responsibility
This is how communist countries feel about controlling family sizes and people in general....^

It's kind of bizarre to see so called American conservatives embrace big government control in family sizes on "certain" issues....

If men could get pregnant, abortions would be as common as Viagra prescriptions.....


~ Former Republican First Lady's Nancy Reagan and Laura Bush were both pro choice, as am I.....

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Old 01-24-2020, 11:21 AM
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Default Re: The fault line concerning abortion

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Originally Posted by Dave1 View Post
This is how communist countries feel about controlling family sizes and people in general....^

It's kind of bizarre to see so called American conservatives embrace big government control in family sizes on "certain" issues....
Failing to understand how wanting to prevent people from killing other people is big government trying to control family sizes. You will have to explain that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave1 View Post
If men could get pregnant, abortions would be as common as Viagra prescriptions.....
Maybe if men could get pregnant, they would be a little more responsible in their sexual activity. After all, people can control the conception of a child, it is quite easy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave1 View Post
~ Former Republican First Lady's Nancy Reagan and Laura Bush were both pro choice, as am I.....
So am I. However, I just shift the definition of choice to the place it actually belongs, the moment of conception.
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Old 01-24-2020, 12:45 PM
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Default Re: The fault line concerning abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave1 View Post
This is how communist countries feel about controlling family sizes and people in general....^

It's kind of bizarre to see so called American conservatives embrace big government control in family sizes on "certain" issues....

If men could get pregnant, abortions would be as common as Viagra prescriptions.....


~ Former Republican First Lady's Nancy Reagan and Laura Bush were both pro choice, as am I.....
Once again proving you have no idea of what you are talking.

Suggesting as a test an impossible situation is poor form in a debate. My favorite is if men could give birth, they would know what pain really is. My answer to any woman who makes this boast, "try getting kicked in the nuts." They can't and cannot image, much less, compare the pain anymore than men can feel their pain. The comparison is ridiculous.

BTW,,,;Responsible men do get pregnant along with their wives. It is a condition, not a disease.


But none of that logic hasn't a damn thing to do with the power of life by one person over any other. Which was my point.

We don't kill merciless evil murderers by the judgement of one person. It takes twelve to convict and to recommend the death penalty. Then the judge must agree. And still the prisoner remains alive under and until all manner of appeals have been denied over an average period of 12 years. A pregnant mom can decide without her mate's approval, the life or death of the unborn in virtually every state in the union in a single moment. No review, no appeal, and no chance of defense accorded the accused.

Only kings and despots were ever given that singular power. We tolerate neither.
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