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Open Discussion Discuss Some interesting poll numbers at the General Forum; Originally Posted by mr wonder I was going to give it a rest until I saw 3 people "like" your ...

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Old 11-06-2019, 09:06 AM
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Default Re: Some interesting poll numbers

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
I was going to give it a rest until I saw 3 people "like" your previous dodge.
If you'd just be up front about the issue and just say "I don't know" or "i'd rather not go into detail about it" rather than trying to make me out to be out of line in in my questions it'd be a more honest discussion.

So please look at your reply HERE , you DID in fact "speculate on speculations" when a shooting war was mentioned.
"I wouldn't worry about rank and file of the military. Career officers are another matter. LEO's are a big question mark as most of them have conflicts between duty and political and union allegiances."

Fact; We did it in 1775 and again thru to 1789. If you consider the stamp act and taxes on tea, for frankly less incentives than current times, by people who had little concept of what individual rights, civil rights, and freedoms actually meant.
Under what reasoning would we not do it today?
Liberals have nibbled at everyone of the basic ten in-alienable rights guaranteed by the US Constitution for 235 years. Now they want to swallow some of them whole.
Add to that, they want to reverse a national election.
An armed Civilian revolt is becoming more and more a possibility with each passing day.
Quote Franc

So please just stop posturing as if I'm asking anymore of you than some clarifications on the speculations which you've already made.

It's very clear that you don't want to go into more details FINE. no problem.
Just back off trying to make me out a bad guy for asking clear and honest questions.
What dodge? One does not "Dodge" phantoms or ridiculous scenarios. The people who placed their thanks on my post did not o so because my posts were "a dodge." What a line of BS.

Speaking of BS;
You keep presenting scenarios as though one morning, an overnight change will have the police at my door, and my neighbor's door, with a warrant to seize my lawful arms.

THAT simply will not happen.
The police most likely won't do it. Not universally.
The military will certainly not do it. EVER!


See no reason to fear the police or the military. You see it otherwise.
The only people who could try is the limp wristed members of the legislature who passed an unconstitutional law.. So my congressman, were he to pass such a law, would have to do it himself.

Unlikely to happen.

And he would not succeed.

Even if he had NAZI style Brown Shirt militants to assist. Which is where the left seems to be headed.

You seem to want me to threaten to shoot somebody. Assuming they would come to my door for me to face alone. An individual taking on the law alone without organized help. A very unlikely scenario for so many reasons. Your premise is ridiculous. That's not a "dodge" but a fact.
So cut the crap, and the sly insults.

The Bill of Rights is a very special part of the original compact that formed our nation. Those ten amendments are not addons like the thirteenth and the 25th which stand alone in their purpose. Repeal of any one of the ten bill of rights amendments weakens them all. None is more important than the other.

So removal or modification of the first, the second and so on, spells eminent disaster for the union. Period.

Patriots will stand in the way, one way or another. Of that there is no question. That said, of success or failure, there is no certainty.

I know where I stand, do you?
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Old 11-06-2019, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: Some interesting poll numbers

AHH ok now i get it,
so the main reason you've dodge the question is becasue you didn't like what you thought were broader implementations of my questions.
Putting LEOs and the military in a bad light... in general.

Not so much my actual questions.
Which only asked for detail of WHAT YOU SAID would be a point where you thought it was appropriate for conservatives to begin shooting people.
QUOTE FRANC
"Liberals have nibbled at everyone of the basic ten in-alienable rights guaranteed by the US Constitution for 235 years. Now they want to swallow some of them whole. Add to that, they want to reverse a national election.
An armed Civilian revolt is becoming more and more a possibility with each passing day.[/B]"
I simply wanted clarification about WHAT scenario you think the shooting would start... "possibly".
And what parts of the constitution SPECIFICALLY would the gov't ---VIA the liberals--- need to break.
i suggested the 2nd amendment.
But 1st I said I have a hard time imagining large numbers of conservative shooting LEOs and Military.... for ANY reason.
A thought which you've confirmed.

So yes, you Dodged the question with amazing claims of most LEO's and military NOT following orders.
which only means that there will be NO NEED for ARMED revolt.
you can't have it both ways.
either there's a, -QUOTE- "possibility" of a -QUOTE- "Armed Revolt"
OR there will be civil disobedience by citizens, LEOs and Military. .
Which is what I suggested earlier as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
What dodge? One does not "Dodge" phantoms or ridiculous scenarios. The people who placed their thanks on my post did not o so because my posts were "a dodge." What a line of BS.
Speaking of BS;
You keep presenting scenarios as though one morning, an overnight change will have the police at my door, and my neighbor's door, with a warrant to seize my lawful arms.
never happen you say?
Two Anne Arundel County police officers serving one of Maryland’s new “red flag” protective orders to remove guns from a house killed a Ferndale man after he refused to give up his gun and a struggle ensued early Monday morning, police said...
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/cr...105-story.html
According to police, when they arrived at Willis’ home he answered the door with a gun in his hand and then set the gun down next to the door. Once the police handed Willis the order, he became enraged and retrieved his weapon. A struggle ensued as one officer tried to take the gun from Willis, who ultimately pulled the trigger. The other officer responded by firing his weapon at Willis, killing him. Neither officer was injured in the incident. The two officers were identified as Corporal J. Hopper and Police First Class G. Zawondry, both five-year veterans of the force. Both have been placed on administrative leave pending an investigation.
The new “red flag” law went into effect Oct. 1, allowing guns to be taken away from anyone labeled as dangerous.
https://americanmilitarynews.com/201...-confiscation/
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
THAT simply will not happen.
Katrina
New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, Police Superintendent P. Eddie Compass unleashed a wave of confiscations with these chilling words:
"No one will be able to be armed. We will take all weapons. Only law enforcement will be allowed to have guns."
Thousands of firearms were then confiscated from law-abiding gun owners. The police gave no paperwork or receipts for those guns. They just stormed in and seized them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
The police most likely won't do it. Not universally.
The military will certainly not do it. EVER!
really?
Coast Guard, St Tammy Sheriffs Dept and the National Guard
"The confiscations continued for nearly two weeks. It took a lawsuit filed by the National Rifle Association, the Second Amendment Foundation and the Gun Owners of America to finally stop the warrant-less door-to-door firearms confiscation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
See no reason to fear the police or the military. You see it otherwise.
The only people who could try is the limp wristed members of the legislature who passed an unconstitutional law.. So my congressman, were he to pass such a law, would have to do it himself."

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Unlikely to happen.
And he would not succeed.
red Flags law going up all over the country Franc, and limp wristed members of the legislature aren't enforcing those laws, police are Franc..

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
You seem to want me to threaten to shoot somebody. Assuming they would come to my door for me to face alone.
YOU said there's a real "possibility" of of "ARMED REVOLT".
I was just trying to find out at what point does that happen for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
An individual taking on the law alone without organized help. A very unlikely scenario for so many reasons. Your premise is ridiculous. That's not a "dodge" but a fact.
So cut the crap, and the sly insults.
I just posted info about Katinia where it did in fact happened over 1000 times. The new red flag laws are another place where it has happened and at least one legal gun owner was killed by police.

seems you're being a bit willing blind here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
The Bill of Rights is a very special part of the original compact that formed our nation. Those ten amendments are not add ons like the thirteenth and the 25th which stand alone in their purpose. Repeal of any one of the ten bill of rights amendments weakens them all. None is more important than the other.
So removal or modification of the first, the second and so on, spells eminent disaster for the union. Period.
I'd agree but several of the other amendments have already been compromised to the point of nullification.
parts of the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th 9th and 10th have all been effectively repealed by degrees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Patriots will stand in the way, one way or another. Of that there is no question. That said, of success or failure, there is no certainty.
I know where I stand, do you?
I've been trying to get Patriots to just ACKNOWLEDGE the problem rather than support the politicians Left AND Right that compromise the bill of rights and what i here from the right are denials that the rights are compromise/broken or excuses for why they MUST be for our "safety".
Except for the 2nd amendment. THAT one is the only one that the right seems to consistantly have some clarity on. all the rest.
fergitabotit nothing to see here move along. LEOs and miltary will protect you.
invasions of homes, records and incarceration without trial will never happen the LEOs military won't let it.
cough gitmo, cough24/7 100% recording of all communications,coughno knock raids, secret courtscough..
sure, patriots will stand...sure
Stand around and talk and chant about "building a wall" while completely ignoring (or Cheering) the current devastation of the bill of rights.
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Job 14:6-8

Last edited by mr wonder; 11-06-2019 at 07:31 PM..
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Old 11-06-2019, 08:28 PM
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Default Re: Some interesting poll numbers

Sheriff Civil Disobedience.
Deciding for himself that his understanding of the Constitution means he does not have the right/Authority to enforce the new Gun restrictions law in Washington State.
And he will not.



as i said the 2nd amendment is clear to many on the right.
As Franc said some LEOs will not obey unconstitutional laws.

The Sheriff said that if the state order gun confiscation there's no question in his mind that there would be a civil war.
My question still stands, who would the revolutionaries shoot?
the lawmakers? the law enforcers? both?

If someone doesn't want the addresses the hypothetical situation the Sheriff raised or think its foolish then there's really no need to comment.
He raised it, I'm just asking for clarification.
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:43 AM
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Default Re: Some interesting poll numbers

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Sheriff Civil Disobedience.
Deciding for himself that his understanding of the Constitution means he does not have the right/Authority to enforce the new Gun restrictions law in Washington State.
And he will not.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WECw0fDkZFo

as i said the 2nd amendment is clear to many on the right.
As Franc said some LEOs will not obey unconstitutional laws.

The Sheriff said that if the state order gun confiscation there's no question in his mind that there would be a civil war.
My question still stands, who would the revolutionaries shoot?
the lawmakers? the law enforcers? both?

If someone doesn't want the addresses the hypothetical situation the Sheriff raised or think its foolish then there's really no need to comment.
He raised it, I'm just asking for clarification.
Ask the Sheriff that said it. Why are you asking forum members to clarify something they did not say? You could just as easily build your own hypothetical scenario and see where it leads you.
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Old 11-07-2019, 02:23 PM
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Default Re: Some interesting poll numbers

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
AHH ok now i get it,
so the main reason you've dodge the question is becasue you didn't like what you thought were broader implementations of my questions.
Putting LEOs and the military in a bad light... in general.

Not so much my actual questions.
Which only asked for detail of WHAT YOU SAID would be a point where you thought it was appropriate for conservatives to begin shooting people.
QUOTE FRANC
"Liberals have nibbled at everyone of the basic ten in-alienable rights guaranteed by the US Constitution for 235 years. Now they want to swallow some of them whole. Add to that, they want to reverse a national election.
An armed Civilian revolt is becoming more and more a possibility with each passing day.[/B]"
I simply wanted clarification about WHAT scenario you think the shooting would start... "possibly".
And what parts of the constitution SPECIFICALLY would the gov't ---VIA the liberals--- need to break.
i suggested the 2nd amendment.
But 1st I said I have a hard time imagining large numbers of conservative shooting LEOs and Military.... for ANY reason.
A thought which you've confirmed.

So yes, you Dodged the question with amazing claims of most LEO's and military NOT following orders.
which only means that there will be NO NEED for ARMED revolt.
you can't have it both ways.
either there's a, -QUOTE- "possibility" of a -QUOTE- "Armed Revolt"
OR there will be civil disobedience by citizens, LEOs and Military. .
Which is what I suggested earlier as well.



never happen you say?
Two Anne Arundel County police officers serving one of Maryland’s new “red flag” protective orders to remove guns from a house killed a Ferndale man after he refused to give up his gun and a struggle ensued early Monday morning, police said...
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/cr...105-story.html
According to police, when they arrived at Willis’ home he answered the door with a gun in his hand and then set the gun down next to the door. Once the police handed Willis the order, he became enraged and retrieved his weapon. A struggle ensued as one officer tried to take the gun from Willis, who ultimately pulled the trigger. The other officer responded by firing his weapon at Willis, killing him. Neither officer was injured in the incident. The two officers were identified as Corporal J. Hopper and Police First Class G. Zawondry, both five-year veterans of the force. Both have been placed on administrative leave pending an investigation.
The new “red flag” law went into effect Oct. 1, allowing guns to be taken away from anyone labeled as dangerous.
https://americanmilitarynews.com/201...-confiscation/

Katrina
New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, Police Superintendent P. Eddie Compass unleashed a wave of confiscations with these chilling words:
"No one will be able to be armed. We will take all weapons. Only law enforcement will be allowed to have guns."
Thousands of firearms were then confiscated from law-abiding gun owners. The police gave no paperwork or receipts for those guns. They just stormed in and seized them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4


really?
Coast Guard, St Tammy Sheriffs Dept and the National Guard
"The confiscations continued for nearly two weeks. It took a lawsuit filed by the National Rifle Association, the Second Amendment Foundation and the Gun Owners of America to finally stop the warrant-less door-to-door firearms confiscation.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8trl69kzo


red Flags law going up all over the country Franc, and limp wristed members of the legislature aren't enforcing those laws, police are Franc..


YOU said there's a real "possibility" of of "ARMED REVOLT".
I was just trying to find out at what point does that happen for you.


I just posted info about Katinia where it did in fact happened over 1000 times. The new red flag laws are another place where it has happened and at least one legal gun owner was killed by police.

seems you're being a bit willing blind here.

I'd agree but several of the other amendments have already been compromised to the point of nullification.
parts of the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th 9th and 10th have all been effectively repealed by degrees.


I've been trying to get Patriots to just ACKNOWLEDGE the problem rather than support the politicians Left AND Right that compromise the bill of rights and what i here from the right are denials that the rights are compromise/broken or excuses for why they MUST be for our "safety".
Except for the 2nd amendment. THAT one is the only one that the right seems to consistantly have some clarity on. all the rest.
fergitabotit nothing to see here move along. LEOs and miltary will protect you.
invasions of homes, records and incarceration without trial will never happen the LEOs military won't let it.
cough gitmo, cough24/7 100% recording of all communications,coughno knock raids, secret courtscough..
sure, patriots will stand...sure
Stand around and talk and chant about "building a wall" while completely ignoring (or Cheering) the current devastation of the bill of rights.
Why do you insist on asking a question about responding to each of many possible possible scenario. It will not be one or another but a combination of events which cause need for many different responses of varying degrees.

I cannot clarify that.

I'm simply not going there.

PERIOD!!!

Now, having said that, I asked you what YOU would do, and you have suggested "NOTHING." Am I to understand, this omission is your way of validating my assertion, that there are no clear answers to the questions you proposed?
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Some interesting poll numbers

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Why do you insist on asking a question about responding to each of many possible possible scenario. It will not be one or another but a combination of events which cause need for many different responses of varying degrees.
I cannot clarify that.
I'm simply not going there.
PERIOD!
Ok that's fine. no worries.
thanks for the strait answer.

I ask the question because it's relevant.
If people are going to "revolt" usually there's a line in sand that's been drawn. Or a spark that sets it off.
The founders wrote up a list of specific grievances. But the shooting revolution was set off earlier by shots fired in Boston between British troops and Americans. followed by other military attacks and battles.
Bottom line The Patriots shooting was clearly against British soldiers. While Royal governors became generals, went into hiding some or back to England.
When Patrick Henry met with the Virginia delegates Some wanted to talk to England more but he asked why the shooting hadn't started there, and said it's started already in the north and is coming here, the armies are on our coast, and asked why are we sitting around?

It just seems to me that a lot of this talk about revolt and revolution today is very vague and fuzzy and emotion driven.
With no real targets... property or human... and no universally specific constitutional grievances other than "nobodies taken my guns".

So over the years I've made it a habit to ASK what people mean specifically when they say... as you and other posters did.. they see a "civil war" "revolution" or "revolt" coming to the U.S..


Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Now, having said that, I asked you what YOU would do, and you have suggested "NOTHING." Am I to understand, this omission is your way of validating my assertion, that there are no clear answers to the questions you proposed?
This is what I posted earlier in the thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
BTW, why are the only goto actions voting or violence?
Getting "our" people in office or ARMED revolt?

Why is the right so adverse ...or blind to... alternative peaceful means of resistance.
If 67% of the right simply decided NOT TO OBEY the stupid laws they would simple go away. there are not enough jails or cops or soldiers to force 67% of conservatives to do jack.

for example if 67% of conservatives refused to be scanned and frisked at the airports the scanners would collect dust and go away.
If 67% of conservatives simply refused to obey turn over weapons laws (including LEOs and Soldiers) their are not enough police to enforce the policy.

no aggressive violence needed.

Nullification by refusal to participate or obey unconstitutional crap is IMO the best way to deal with most of the BSery.
however The State, leftist and corporate control control of the communications, surveillance, and commerce makes it more difficult to implement everyday but it's still a powerful option.
worked with Ghandi in India as well as other places.

but people would have to be serious and generally on the same page.
If conservative means "Attacking the M.E." or "standing up for the anthem" and "cops right to shoot anyone anytime" more than honest application of "the bill of the rights", real constitutional gov't, traditional values and equal treatment. then i think a lot of people who would participate would not.
That's what I'd like to see Franc.
I hope and pray there is no ARMED revolt. I don't want to shoot anyone.
and if police come to my door for my weapons I'm going to lie. And have them well hidden. No need to shoot them... at least not at that point.
But if things get crazier than I expect they will, who knows.
My reaction would probably depend a lot on what the gov't had already done to others.

But my prayer is that the country will start to turn more toward God and the Constitution...all of it.
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:38 PM
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Default Re: Some interesting poll numbers

Quote:
Originally Posted by GetAClue
Ask the Sheriff that said it. Why are you asking forum members to clarify something they did not say? You could just as easily build your own hypothetical scenario and see where it leads you.
why? because they did say it.
Even you said it. But you did give a little more clarification of your view of.

jimbo;
...I'm surprised that 2/3 claim to believe we are on the verge of a civil war. I sort of believe we are, but I would act only defensively. I'd never start one.
Could this be the reason the some of the left believe that all guns must be removed from society? Even if door to door searches are required?...

FrancSevin
....An armed Civilian revolt is becoming more and more a possibility with each passing day....

GetAClue
...IF these trends continue, you will see freedom loving people (not just conservatives) begin to band together in an effort to protect themselves and their property. And if some local head strong politician or LEO decides to teach them a lesson about authority, it could get ugly. Once that happens, it will spread around the country like wildfire and THAT will be the start of the armed civil war. It won't be like the last one along state lines, but will be along ideological lines and quickly overtake pockets around the country. The left if pushing those of us that care about our freedoms and our God given rights, to the point where people WILL see no other option but to forcibly resist any encroachments on their rights. It won't be widespread at first, but will most likely be in response to over zealous actions taken by the left...
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Job 14:6-8
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:01 AM
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Default Re: Some interesting poll numbers

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
why? because they did say it.
Even you said it. But you did give a little more clarification of your view of.

jimbo;
...I'm surprised that 2/3 claim to believe we are on the verge of a civil war. I sort of believe we are, but I would act only defensively. I'd never start one.
Could this be the reason the some of the left believe that all guns must be removed from society? Even if door to door searches are required?...

FrancSevin
....An armed Civilian revolt is becoming more and more a possibility with each passing day....

GetAClue
...IF these trends continue, you will see freedom loving people (not just conservatives) begin to band together in an effort to protect themselves and their property. And if some local head strong politician or LEO decides to teach them a lesson about authority, it could get ugly. Once that happens, it will spread around the country like wildfire and THAT will be the start of the armed civil war. It won't be like the last one along state lines, but will be along ideological lines and quickly overtake pockets around the country. The left if pushing those of us that care about our freedoms and our God given rights, to the point where people WILL see no other option but to forcibly resist any encroachments on their rights. It won't be widespread at first, but will most likely be in response to over zealous actions taken by the left...
You were asking about the Sheriffs statements, not mine or Franks.
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:10 PM
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Default Re: Some interesting poll numbers

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Ok that's fine. no worries.
thanks for the strait answer.

I ask the question because it's relevant.
If people are going to "revolt" usually there's a line in sand that's been drawn. Or a spark that sets it off.
The founders wrote up a list of specific grievances. But the shooting revolution was set off earlier by shots fired in Boston between British troops and Americans. followed by other military attacks and battles.
Bottom line The Patriots shooting was clearly against British soldiers. While Royal governors became generals, went into hiding some or back to England.
When Patrick Henry met with the Virginia delegates Some wanted to talk to England more but he asked why the shooting hadn't started there, and said it's started already in the north and is coming here, the armies are on our coast, and asked why are we sitting around?

It just seems to me that a lot of this talk about revolt and revolution today is very vague and fuzzy and emotion driven.
With no real targets... property or human... and no universally specific constitutional grievances other than "nobodies taken my guns".

So over the years I've made it a habit to ASK what people mean specifically when they say... as you and other posters did.. they see a "civil war" "revolution" or "revolt" coming to the U.S..




This is what I posted earlier in the thread.


That's what I'd like to see Franc.
I hope and pray there is no ARMED revolt. I don't want to shoot anyone.
and if police come to my door for my weapons I'm going to lie. And have them well hidden. No need to shoot them... at least not at that point.
But if things get crazier than I expect they will, who knows.
My reaction would probably depend a lot on what the gov't had already done to others.

But my prayer is that the country will start to turn more toward God and the Constitution...all of it.
You're expecting an answer to a question not yet answerable. As Potter said. I can't define it but I'll know it when I see it. It may be an individual incident or a series of incidents.

Most likely it will be a last straw type of incident and a group decision.
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:47 PM
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Default Re: Some interesting poll numbers

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Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
You're expecting an answer to a question not yet answerable. As Potter said. I can't define it but I'll know it when I see it. It may be an individual incident or a series of incidents.

Most likely it will be a last straw type of incident and a group decision.
It seems that way, and as i said mentioned, it seems very vague and sketchy... more like talk.
and frankly i don't see it happening. few can or will name any specific constitutional lines in the sand or revolutionary targets in the revolt. And as far as it being a group decision, OK, what group? A majority of conservatives we'ren't even in full support of Trump to vote for him in 2016. I find it hard to imagine that most conservatives would be sparked into shooting people by any series or a singular "last straw". a last straw for some won't be the last straw for others. it's all very nebulous and emotional talk so far.
The various militia groups around the country probably have a better Idea of what they'd consider a last straw and probably some plans of action.
but it seems that many of the conservative that i've heard don't like the being associated with militias much.
Plus to use the boiling frog analogue we're already far past the boiling point as far as constitution less governance goes. If the series of incidence continues at the current pace we'll already be "dead" constitutionally long before anyone decides to revolt about it.

as i mentioned in passing earlier, during the 2016 election we heard little to nothing about restoration of the constitution.
The conservative right was mainly concerned about building a wall, looking strong to foreign countries and the economy.... and not having Hillary as president.

the only time Trump made passing reference to the constitution during the campaign was when he proposed policies that'd break it. (like suing reporters, closing mosque, censor parts of the Internet, and using the CiC chair in a dictatorial way.) Thankful he was talked out of most of those but many Trump supporters --"conservatives" that can see a revolution coming-- did NOT have a problem with his clearly unconstitutional proposals. (and are currently making excuses for Trumps breaking the Emolument clause)
what's up with that?

it's facts like these that cause me to ask for specifics about "revolution".
Because as i've said before the ONLY part of the constitution that i see many conservatives get fighting mad about is the 2nd amendment. Other than that the anger I see seems more about political personalities, and sideshow power politics rather than clear substantive Constitutional issues.
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Last edited by mr wonder; 11-08-2019 at 08:00 PM..
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