Political Wrinkles  

Go Back   Political Wrinkles > General Forum > Open Discussion
Register FAQDonate PW Store PW Trivia Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Open Discussion Discuss A self-contradiction concerning our southern border at the General Forum; Originally Posted by pjohns I read just part of the above response, as it was a bit too...well, loquacious. I ...

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2019, 11:02 AM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,420
Thanks: 1,492
Thanked 2,302 Times in 1,836 Posts
Default Re: A self-contradiction concerning our southern border

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
I read just part of the above response, as it was a bit too...well, loquacious.

I did notice, however--as in other posts of yours--that you characterize the invasion of our country, by illegals, as "a minor misdemeanor" at least five times. (It is as if it were nothing any more serious than, say, jaywalking.)

Your comment that it has "always been a policy in our legal system that addresses justice that a prosecution based upon the law that results in an injustice to the accused is contrary to the intent of our laws and the Constitution of the United States" is entirely subjective; and I try very hard to stay away from mere subjectivity.

And I have seen photographs of those held in custody on our border. They do not appear, at all, to be the subjects of inhumane treatment. (To describe food--as you have done--as "being described as smelling rotten," is to speak in a weasely fashion, and beg the question: Just who is describing it that way--and why?

Once again, it is apparent that you cannot debate a point without referring--pejoratively, of course--to President Trump.

Well, I decline to take the bait.

I simply refuse to debate President Trump in this thread.

So you are simply wasting your breath (or your keystrokes, anyway).
Migrant refugees, unlike Mexican workers that illegally cross the border for employment, are virtually always one-time offenders so the following (edited) part of the law applies.

Quote:
8 U.S. Code § 1325.Improper entry by alien
U.S. Code

(a)Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts

Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both.

(b)Improper time or place; civil penalties

Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of—

(1)at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry);
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325

Laws with a penalty of less than one year are considered misdemeanors if it isn't expressly stated. In actual conviction for these offenses the courts typically impose the punishment of "time served" with no fine and then release the person.

But here's a point of interest. These refugees did go to a US port of entry, in compliance with our laws, but were denied their right under our law to apply for asylum by our government. They attempted to submit to examination at a designated point of entry but it was the CBP that wouldn't allow it. Why isn't the CBP being held accountable for not following our law?

As for DOJ policy it has to be a very evident case of a serious injustice that goes beyond just being subjective.

The inhumane conditions at the detention centers have been reported by those delegated with the responsibility to inspect those facilities, by doctors that have been called upon to treat people at those facilities, it's been witnessed by members of Congress and the Vice President of the United States, and even the DHS Inspector General has reported the over-crowding is so bad that it's creating a very dangerous situation for both the detainees and the CBP agents guarding them.

Most importantly we have the description of the conditions by those that have been subjected to those conditions - the detainees themselves. There are interviews of detainees most of which occur once the detainee is released but some of which are during their detention. We have detainees begging visitors to help them. We have sworn depositions used in court filings. And finally we have HHS with hundreds of incident reports where the conditions are described by children once they're released to HHS custody.

Quote:
The U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, Michelle Bachelet, has condemned the conditions of detention in which refugees and migrants are being held on the southern border of the United States.

Bachelet calls conditions in the camps appalling for both adult and child refugees and migrants, but especially for children. Her spokeswoman, Ravina Shamdasani, told VOA that the high commissioner, as a former pediatrician, and as a mother, grandmother, and former head of state, feels personally stricken by the plight of the children.

“She is deeply shocked from all these perspectives at the way that children are forced to sleep on the floor in overcrowded facilities, without access to adequate health care or food, separated from their families in many circumstances, under very poor sanitation conditions,” Shamdasani said of Bachelet. “And these are conditions that have been documented by the Department of Homeland Security’s Office of the Inspector General itself.

“The many different U.N. human rights bodies have found that the detention of migrant children may constitute cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, which is, of course, prohibited by international law.”
https://legbase.com/news/un-rights-c...detention.html

Those involved with the detention of children specifically are in violation of international law and are committing crimes against humanity. All of these detentions in over-crowded facilities violate the precedent established for prisoners in our penal institutions where the Supreme Court ruled that the conditions (that aren't even this bad) represented cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the 8th Amendment.
__________________
"I always had a rule, if a restaurant is dirty on the outside, it's dirty on the inside." Donald Trump

"I always had a rule, if the White House is dirty on the inside, it's dirty on the outside." ShivaTD

Based upon the corruption, brutality, inhumanity, immorality, dishonesty, and incompetence of the Trump administration the White House is the dirtiest house in America and there's no known cleanser that with remove the stains of the Trump Administration.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 08-03-2019, 12:38 PM
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Tennessee
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,912
Thanks: 11,429
Thanked 4,264 Times in 2,758 Posts
Default Re: A self-contradiction concerning our southern border

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Migrant refugees, unlike Mexican workers that illegally cross the border for employment, are virtually always one-time offenders so the following (edited) part of the law applies.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325

Laws with a penalty of less than one year are considered misdemeanors if it isn't expressly stated. In actual conviction for these offenses the courts typically impose the punishment of "time served" with no fine and then release the person.

But here's a point of interest. These refugees did go to a US port of entry, in compliance with our laws, but were denied their right under our law to apply for asylum by our government. They attempted to submit to examination at a designated point of entry but it was the CBP that wouldn't allow it. Why isn't the CBP being held accountable for not following our law?

As for DOJ policy it has to be a very evident case of a serious injustice that goes beyond just being subjective.

The inhumane conditions at the detention centers have been reported by those delegated with the responsibility to inspect those facilities, by doctors that have been called upon to treat people at those facilities, it's been witnessed by members of Congress and the Vice President of the United States, and even the DHS Inspector General has reported the over-crowding is so bad that it's creating a very dangerous situation for both the detainees and the CBP agents guarding them.

Most importantly we have the description of the conditions by those that have been subjected to those conditions - the detainees themselves. There are interviews of detainees most of which occur once the detainee is released but some of which are during their detention. We have detainees begging visitors to help them. We have sworn depositions used in court filings. And finally we have HHS with hundreds of incident reports where the conditions are described by children once they're released to HHS custody.


https://legbase.com/news/un-rights-c...detention.html

Those involved with the detention of children specifically are in violation of international law and are committing crimes against humanity. All of these detentions in over-crowded facilities violate the precedent established for prisoners in our penal institutions where the Supreme Court ruled that the conditions (that aren't even this bad) represented cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the 8th Amendment.
Let me make one thing abundantly clear: If the conditions at the border were just as you say--or anywhere near that--I would join you in thoroughly condemning it.

But please let me reiterate that: If the conditions at the border were just as you say--or anywhere near that--I would join you in thoroughly condemning it.

I simply cannot overemphasize this simple fact.

So we are not debating whether the conditions you describe are inhumane--of course they are! but whether such conditions actually exist on our southern border.

From what I have heard on the news, these people are treated very well; and when medical care is needed, they are quickly taken to see a doctor.

If what has been said on the news is in error, then these people would, indeed, have been made the subjects of cruel and inhumane treatment.

But I simply do not believe that this is the case.

(Oh, it is my understanding that "Mexican workers that illegally cross the border for employment" is largely a thing of the past. Nowadays, it is usually families--often made-up families (a random child may be added, for instance)--that come to America, as they are much more likely to be accepted.)
__________________
"In his second inaugural address, [Franklin D.] Roosevelt sought 'unimagined power' to enforce the 'proper subordination' of private power to public power. He got it…"—George Will, July 8, 2007
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2019, 09:37 AM
ShivaTD's Avatar
Progressive Libertarian
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Immigrant to Arizona
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,420
Thanks: 1,492
Thanked 2,302 Times in 1,836 Posts
Default Re: A self-contradiction concerning our southern border

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Why?

If these "neighbors" have passed through another country--one in which they would be, presumably, safe (if they are fleeing government oppression; absent which, I would not have any desire to take them in), why would I wish to "prioritize" them over others?

Personally, I would prioritize those who wish to assimilate into American culture, rather than to bring their own culture with them, and demand that the US must change to suit them (which is sometimes known as multiculturalism).
What country is being referred to as being safe? It's certainly not Mexico.

According to the US State Department that states in it's travel advisory on Mexico that, "Violent crime, such as homicide, kidnapping, carjacking, and robbery, is widespread."
https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...-advisory.html

In a decision last week U.S. District Judge Jon S. Tigar said a “mountain” of evidence showed that migrants could not safely seek asylum in Mexico.
https://www.texastribune.org/2019/07...asylum-access/

Monoculturalism and an "American culture" is a myth.

E Pluribus Unum
(From Many One)

There isn't an "American culture" per se because America has always been a multicultural society since it's founding. The assimilation into being an American has nothing to do with cultural differences of the People of the United States. It has to do with our uniquely American ideology expressed by the following:

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
It is embodied in the First Principles upon which our nation was founded.
Quote:
The rule of law is a First Principle that mandates that the law governs everyone

The First Principle of unalienable rights recognizes that everyone is naturally endowed by their Creator with certain rights

Equality is a First Principle that recognizes that all persons are created equal
The First Principle of the Social Compact recognizes that governments are instituted by the people and derive their just powers from the consent of the governed

The First Principle of limited government means that the protection of unalienable rights is the legitimate purpose and limit of government requires the government to be strong enough to fulfill its purpose yet limited to that purpose
Refugees and other immigrants are not coming here to convert America to their cultural heritage. They do demand, and rightfully so, that their culture receive the same respect and be treated with equally with the other many cultures that exist in our nation.

No one seems to mind when Norwegians Worldwide has it's annual Nordic Days in Phoenix but when Latinos celebrate Cinco D Mayo somehow that's an attempt to change the cultural of everyone else in America.

Once again while the Refugee Act does refer to forms of political oppression the overriding condition for refugee admission is "humanitarian crisis" exists. People can suffer from government oppression without a humanitarian crisis existing. People can also suffer from a humanitarian crisis that's unrelated to government oppression.

It is the humanitarian crisis that asylum is based upon.

Returning to one of the two parts of the problem.

First is that ICE and the CBP are being used as a weapon of xenophobia and racism by blocking the lawful admission of refugees arriving at US ports of entry. It is the blocking of refugees from applying for asylum at US ports of entry in compliance with our laws that's created crisis at our Southern border.

The other problem is that ICE is being used as a terrorist weapon to threaten the Hispanic communities by arresting and expeditiously deporting undocumented immigrants, not giving them a chance for legal representation, that have families in the United States comprised of American citizens. Tearing families apart is about as unamerican as anything we can imagine.
__________________
"I always had a rule, if a restaurant is dirty on the outside, it's dirty on the inside." Donald Trump

"I always had a rule, if the White House is dirty on the inside, it's dirty on the outside." ShivaTD

Based upon the corruption, brutality, inhumanity, immorality, dishonesty, and incompetence of the Trump administration the White House is the dirtiest house in America and there's no known cleanser that with remove the stains of the Trump Administration.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2019, 10:24 AM
Dave1's Avatar
...Fair and Balanced...
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Houston, Texas
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,979
Thanks: 4,025
Thanked 5,071 Times in 2,992 Posts
Default Re: A self-contradiction concerning our southern border

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post

Unfortunately, many on the Left want no enforcement of ANY kind...
Police have become the enemy in some eyes...
Waaaay too much fake news in that redd.....

I've never heard of any dem that wants to do away with law enforcement that is not in jail....

Bad cops are also despised by republicans that stand up for their 1st, 2nd and 4th and 5th Amendment rights as often as possible....

Put that Wagner Power painter down for a bit brother.....
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2019, 09:12 AM
PW Enlightenment
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Tennessee
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,912
Thanks: 11,429
Thanked 4,264 Times in 2,758 Posts
Default Re: A self-contradiction concerning our southern border

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
What country is being referred to as being safe? It's certainly not Mexico.
Indeed it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
According to the US State Department that states in it's travel advisory on Mexico that, "Violent crime, such as homicide, kidnapping, carjacking, and robbery, is widespread."
https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...-advisory.html
Well, people from Central America--who make up the bulk of these "immigrants"--must come through Mexico to get to the US.

Are you saying, then, that it is unsafe for them to pass through Mexico?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
In a decision last week U.S. District Judge Jon S. Tigar said a “mountain” of evidence showed that migrants could not safely seek asylum in Mexico.
https://www.texastribune.org/2019/07...asylum-access/
The appellate courts--and particularly the Ninth District (although it did rule in favor of the administration recently)--have often ruled against the administration.

But if it ever makes it to the SCOTUS, the result is likely to be quite different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Monoculturalism and an "American culture" is a myth.
Yes, we poor rubes in "flyover country" have just been duped, I suppose...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
There isn't an "American culture" per se because America has always been a multicultural society since it's founding.
And that, of course, is a myth of the left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Refugees and other immigrants are not coming here to convert America to their cultural heritage. They do demand, and rightfully so, that their culture receive the same respect and be treated with equally with the other many cultures that exist in our nation.
Ah, the fruit salad thinking...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
No one seems to mind when Norwegians Worldwide has it's annual Nordic Days in Phoenix but when Latinos celebrate Cinco D Mayo somehow that's an attempt to change the cultural of everyone else in America.
Like most people, I suspect, I was not even aware of "Nordic Days." But I have no objection to it--just as I have no objection to Cinco De Mayo. Nor to enchiladas and refried beans. (In fact, I very much like the latter!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The other problem is that ICE is being used as a terrorist weapon to threaten the Hispanic communities by arresting and expeditiously deporting undocumented immigrants, not giving them a chance for legal representation, that have families in the United States comprised of American citizens. Tearing families apart is about as unamerican as anything we can imagine.
If this is true, then why have the courts not intervened?
__________________
"In his second inaugural address, [Franklin D.] Roosevelt sought 'unimagined power' to enforce the 'proper subordination' of private power to public power. He got it…"—George Will, July 8, 2007
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to pjohns For This Useful Post:
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 08-05-2019, 09:22 AM
FrancSevin's Avatar
Runs with scissors
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: St Louis MO
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,954
Thanks: 9,148
Thanked 12,594 Times in 6,935 Posts
Default Re: A self-contradiction concerning our southern border

Ah, poor Shiva"T"
Americans celebrate Cinco De Mayo far more seriously than Mexico.

In the United States, Cinco de Mayo has taken on a significance beyond that in Mexico.[3][4][5][6] More popularly celebrated in the United States than Mexico,[7] the date has become associated with the celebration of Mexican-American culture. These celebrations began in California, where they have been observed annually since 1863. The day gained nationwide popularity in the 1980s thanks especially to advertising campaigns by beer and wine companies. Today, Cinco de Mayo generates beer sales on par with the Super Bowl.

In Mexico, the commemoration of the battle continues to be mostly ceremonial, such as through military parades or battle reenactments. The city of Puebla marks the event with an arts festival, a festival of local cuisine, and re-enactments of the battle.

Cinco de Mayo is sometimes mistaken for Mexico's Independence Day—the most important national holiday in Mexico—which is celebrated on September 16, commemorating the Cry of Dolores, which initiated the war of Mexican independence from Spain
__________________
I am going to hang a Batman Costume in my closet. .......... Just to screw with myself when I get alzheimer's.
sola gratia, sola fide, sola scriptura.

I AM NOT A REPUBLICAN, I AM A FREEMAN, THE DEMOCRATS WORST NIGHTMARE
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to FrancSevin For This Useful Post:
Reply

Tags
border, concerning, our, selfcontradiction, southern

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0