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Old 04-15-2019, 12:40 PM
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Default My Problem With Fox (Faux) News

Some may not see this be the following story exemplifies my problem with news opinions expressed on Fox News. The story is on the use of the term "spying" by AG Bill Barr during his Congressional testimony. Please read the entire story, it's short, because I'll only pull statements out of context.

https://insider.foxnews.com/2019/04/...m_medium=email

Quote:
Attorney General Bill Barr has taken heavy criticism from Democrats and media figures after testifying Wednesday that “spying did occur” against the Trump campaign in 2016.

A source told Fox News that with the term "spying," Barr was referring to intelligence collection that already has been widely reported and confirmed.
Spying and intelligence gathering are not the same thing if we look at the definition of spying or spy which is the root word.

Quote:
spy
[spī]

NOUN
a person who secretly collects and reports information on the activities, movements, and plans of an enemy or competitor.
synonyms:
secret agent · undercover agent · enemy agent · foreign agent · [more]
VERB
work for a government or other organization by secretly collecting information about enemies or competitors.
"he agreed to spy for the West"
synonyms:
espionage · undercover work · cloak-and-dagger activities · [more]
https://www.bing.com/search?q=dictio...68CAB343ED843F

First and foremost the Trump campaign was not an "enemy of competitor" of the FBI, DOJ, or our intelligence agencies. Political parties and candidates compete with each other but they don't compete with nor are they enemies of our government.

At the same time we know that spying did occur during the 2016 election because the Russian hacking of the DNC and Clinton campaign emails. Russia could certainly view Hillary Clinton as an enemy of Russia. That was certainly spying by a foreign intelligence agency and it was also a criminal act. Spying virtually always results in criminal acts by those that spy. The CIA spies on foreign governments and individuals and when it does so it's violating the laws of the target country.

Domestic intelligence gathering does not include any criminal conduct by those conducting the investigation as those investigations are conducted under the Rule of Law.

There's never been any evidence of "spying" against the Trump campaign by the US government that lawfully investigated the intervention of the Russians in the 2016 elections. AG Barr knows that and his deliberate choice of the word "spying" was to imply an illegal activity by the United States government against the Trump campaign without any evidence of any illegal "intelligence gathering" by the US government. The Trump campaign and Donald Trump have both used Barr's statement of "spying" in the context of "illegal" activities by the US government against the Trump campaign.

Bob Barr knew that the definition of the word "spying" included criminal misconduct because spying virtually always results in criminal activities and Barr also knew that the Trump campaign was not the enemy of or a competitor of the United States government where spying would occur. It was the intentional use of a word to fuel the conspiracy theories of Donald Trump and those at Fox News.

The Fox News story doesn't end there.

Quote:
On "Outnumbered Overtime" Thursday, Biggs pointed out that Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) warrants against former Trump campaign aide Carter Page are currently the subject of a Justice Department inspector general investigation.

Biggs said there are serious questions about potential misconduct in the issuance of those warrants, including if they relied on the infamous anti-Trump dossier -- unverified political opposition research that was funded by the Hillary Clinton campaign and Democratic National Committee.
There are no serious questions about the FISA issued surveillance warrant, that was renewed several times, for Carter Page that had been under the watchful eyes of the FBI for years. This would be an attack on the FISA court judge and not on the FBI because the warrant is issued by the judge and not by the FBI. Carter Page wasn't even associated with the Trump campaign when the surveillance warrant was issued.

Additionally Fusion GPS and Christopher Steele were not engaged in "political opposition research" in conducting the investigation of Donald Trump. Fusion GPS and Orbis Business Intelligence, the corporation that Christopher Steele founded, are predominately engaged in open source (publicly available) research where they research and report the facts they learn without any bias or prejudice. The DNC and Clinton campaign were conducting "opposition research" by employing Fusion GPS to provide accurate and unprejudiced research into Donald Trump. Both Fusion GPS and Orbis Business Intelligence would fail as research enterprises if they allowed bias or prejudice to influence the results of their research.

Christopher Steele had no knowledge of who the client was and never received any directions from the DNC or Hillary Clinton campaign that would have potentially influenced his research and investigation into Donald Trump.

The claim that the Steele Dossier was "anti-Trump" is based upon the simple fact that it included negative and damaging information about Donald Trump. Christopher Steele wasn't responsible for the information he collected being damaging to Donald Trump. The "facts" provided by the information was damaging to Donald Trump. Facts are facts and they're neither for or against anyone. They're just the facts.

This information was also verified by Christopher Steele that relied on multiple sources before including the information in his memo's to the FBI. For example the most salacious information provided was about Trump's 2013 stay in Moscow where prostitutes are involved. Christopher Steele had four different people report this incident two of which worked at the hotel, another was a government official with connections to Russian intelligence, and the last person worked in the Kremlin. The two hotel workers had to be considered a single source but the other two sources were completely independent sources. Three different sources of the same information provided verification of the information. The FBI and CIA has also provided verification of almost all of Steele's information of Trump's stay at the Ritz-Carlton in 2013. The only information missing the names of the prostitutes and their collaborative statements about that night.

Steele was a professional and he always took care to verify the information he gathered. Just because US intelligence hasn't verified the same information doesn't imply that Steele didn't verify the information. Our intelligence agencies have been able to verify most of the information in the Steele Dossier and to continue to claim it's unverified represents propaganda and not facts.

Of course the information provided by Christopher Steele used in obtaining the surveillance warrant against Carter Page had no ultimate bearing on the FISA court issuing the warrant. The application was over 100 pages long with Steele's information comprising less than a single page, perhaps just a paragraph, in the application. The application also included a footnote on the ultimate source of funding for part Steele's investigation (Fusion GPS funded Steele after the DNC/Clinton campaign ended their funding).

And finally:
Quote:
He added that Democrats are "changing their narrative constantly" following the revelation that Mueller found no evidence of Trump-Russia collusion and did not make a determination on obstruction of justice.
The Mueller investigation didn't address collusion at all in it's investigation. Collusion isn't a crime and Mueller's investigators were focused on a criminal investigation. The word is very unlikely to be found in Mueller's report. Mueller did investigate "conspiracy" and came to the conclusion that there wasn't enough evidence for a charge of conspiracy against Trump or members of the Trump campaign. That doesn't imply evidence doesn't exist and we already know from reporting there's some evidence of a possible conspiracy. There's just not enough evidence for a criminal complaint.

Finally we can note that AG Barr has made a "determination" on obstruction of justice but, instead of following Mueller's lead that the evidence may or may not be enough for a criminal complaint, Barr came out claiming that obstruction of justice by the President simply didn't occur even though there's evidence of obstruction.

AG Barr has corrupted the Mueller report by providing a false narrative and misinformation in support of Donald Trump. The Trump defense is going to focus on what Barr says to disparage with Mueller's report actually states. We already know this strategy is in place and being used.

I hate slanted news and Fox News is famous for slanting the news and misrepresenting the facts.
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Old 04-15-2019, 05:06 PM
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Default Re: My Problem With Fox (Faux) News

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Some may not see this be the following story exemplifies my problem with news opinions expressed on Fox News. The story is on the use of the term "spying" by AG Bill Barr during his Congressional testimony. Please read the entire story, it's short, because I'll only pull statements out of context.

https://insider.foxnews.com/2019/04/...m_medium=email



Spying and intelligence gathering are not the same thing if we look at the definition of spying or spy which is the root word.


https://www.bing.com/search?q=dictio...68CAB343ED843F

First and foremost the Trump campaign was not an "enemy of competitor" of the FBI, DOJ, or our intelligence agencies. Political parties and candidates compete with each other but they don't compete with nor are they enemies of our government.

At the same time we know that spying did occur during the 2016 election because the Russian hacking of the DNC and Clinton campaign emails. Russia could certainly view Hillary Clinton as an enemy of Russia. That was certainly spying by a foreign intelligence agency and it was also a criminal act. Spying virtually always results in criminal acts by those that spy. The CIA spies on foreign governments and individuals and when it does so it's violating the laws of the target country.

Domestic intelligence gathering does not include any criminal conduct by those conducting the investigation as those investigations are conducted under the Rule of Law.

There's never been any evidence of "spying" against the Trump campaign by the US government that lawfully investigated the intervention of the Russians in the 2016 elections. AG Barr knows that and his deliberate choice of the word "spying" was to imply an illegal activity by the United States government against the Trump campaign without any evidence of any illegal "intelligence gathering" by the US government. The Trump campaign and Donald Trump have both used Barr's statement of "spying" in the context of "illegal" activities by the US government against the Trump campaign.

Bob Barr knew that the definition of the word "spying" included criminal misconduct because spying virtually always results in criminal activities and Barr also knew that the Trump campaign was not the enemy of or a competitor of the United States government where spying would occur. It was the intentional use of a word to fuel the conspiracy theories of Donald Trump and those at Fox News.

The Fox News story doesn't end there.



There are no serious questions about the FISA issued surveillance warrant, that was renewed several times, for Carter Page that had been under the watchful eyes of the FBI for years. This would be an attack on the FISA court judge and not on the FBI because the warrant is issued by the judge and not by the FBI. Carter Page wasn't even associated with the Trump campaign when the surveillance warrant was issued.

Additionally Fusion GPS and Christopher Steele were not engaged in "political opposition research" in conducting the investigation of Donald Trump. Fusion GPS and Orbis Business Intelligence, the corporation that Christopher Steele founded, are predominately engaged in open source (publicly available) research where they research and report the facts they learn without any bias or prejudice. The DNC and Clinton campaign were conducting "opposition research" by employing Fusion GPS to provide accurate and unprejudiced research into Donald Trump. Both Fusion GPS and Orbis Business Intelligence would fail as research enterprises if they allowed bias or prejudice to influence the results of their research.

Christopher Steele had no knowledge of who the client was and never received any directions from the DNC or Hillary Clinton campaign that would have potentially influenced his research and investigation into Donald Trump.

The claim that the Steele Dossier was "anti-Trump" is based upon the simple fact that it included negative and damaging information about Donald Trump. Christopher Steele wasn't responsible for the information he collected being damaging to Donald Trump. The "facts" provided by the information was damaging to Donald Trump. Facts are facts and they're neither for or against anyone. They're just the facts.

This information was also verified by Christopher Steele that relied on multiple sources before including the information in his memo's to the FBI. For example the most salacious information provided was about Trump's 2013 stay in Moscow where prostitutes are involved. Christopher Steele had four different people report this incident two of which worked at the hotel, another was a government official with connections to Russian intelligence, and the last person worked in the Kremlin. The two hotel workers had to be considered a single source but the other two sources were completely independent sources. Three different sources of the same information provided verification of the information. The FBI and CIA has also provided verification of almost all of Steele's information of Trump's stay at the Ritz-Carlton in 2013. The only information missing the names of the prostitutes and their collaborative statements about that night.

Steele was a professional and he always took care to verify the information he gathered. Just because US intelligence hasn't verified the same information doesn't imply that Steele didn't verify the information. Our intelligence agencies have been able to verify most of the information in the Steele Dossier and to continue to claim it's unverified represents propaganda and not facts.

Of course the information provided by Christopher Steele used in obtaining the surveillance warrant against Carter Page had no ultimate bearing on the FISA court issuing the warrant. The application was over 100 pages long with Steele's information comprising less than a single page, perhaps just a paragraph, in the application. The application also included a footnote on the ultimate source of funding for part Steele's investigation (Fusion GPS funded Steele after the DNC/Clinton campaign ended their funding).

And finally:


The Mueller investigation didn't address collusion at all in it's investigation. Collusion isn't a crime and Mueller's investigators were focused on a criminal investigation. The word is very unlikely to be found in Mueller's report. Mueller did investigate "conspiracy" and came to the conclusion that there wasn't enough evidence for a charge of conspiracy against Trump or members of the Trump campaign. That doesn't imply evidence doesn't exist and we already know from reporting there's some evidence of a possible conspiracy. There's just not enough evidence for a criminal complaint.

Finally we can note that AG Barr has made a "determination" on obstruction of justice but, instead of following Mueller's lead that the evidence may or may not be enough for a criminal complaint, Barr came out claiming that obstruction of justice by the President simply didn't occur even though there's evidence of obstruction.

AG Barr has corrupted the Mueller report by providing a false narrative and misinformation in support of Donald Trump. The Trump defense is going to focus on what Barr says to disparage with Mueller's report actually states. We already know this strategy is in place and being used.

I hate slanted news and Fox News is famous for slanting the news and misrepresenting the facts.
FYI, all "news" is slanted these days. You would need to stop watching ALL of it.

Also, spying has more than one meaning. Search out, watch closely, and/or examine, is the main one, and that fits what Barr said.

also, observe closely and secretly, also true. Trump was not informed of the surveillance, so it was also spying.

There is not one single meaning for the word "spying" in Webster's that goes against the way Barr used it.
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Old 04-15-2019, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: My Problem With Fox (Faux) News

Dictionary.com defines "surveillance" in this way:

"1 a watch kept over a person, group, etc., especially over a suspect, prisoner, or the like: The suspects were under police surveillance.

"2 continuous observation of a place, person, group, or ongoing activity in order to gather information: video cameras used for covert surveillance. See also electronic surveillance.

"3 attentive observation, as to oversee and direct someone or something: increased surveillance of patients with chronic liver disease."

The second definition, especially, sounds a great deal like spying...
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Old 04-15-2019, 06:44 PM
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Default Re: My Problem With Fox (Faux) News

Shiva's problem with FOX is that though they aren't perfect, they have reported and predicted closer to the truth than any other cable station.

Shepard, Leland Vitter and Chris Wallace give the conservatives little quarter during interviews. I sometimes wonder if they would not be happier at CNN.
CNN BTW; A station I recommend to people who cannot handle the truth.

Megyn Kelly tried it with mixed results.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:56 AM
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Default Re: My Problem With Fox (Faux) News

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Man View Post
FYI, all "news" is slanted these days. You would need to stop watching ALL of it.

Also, spying has more than one meaning. Search out, watch closely, and/or examine, is the main one, and that fits what Barr said.

also, observe closely and secretly, also true. Trump was not informed of the surveillance, so it was also spying.

There is not one single meaning for the word "spying" in Webster's that goes against the way Barr used it.
You forgot the new dictionaries of Clowd&Piven and Saul Alinsky
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:16 AM
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Default Re: My Problem With Fox (Faux) News

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog Man View Post
FYI, all "news" is slanted these days. You would need to stop watching ALL of it.

Also, spying has more than one meaning. Search out, watch closely, and/or examine, is the main one, and that fits what Barr said.

also, observe closely and secretly, also true. Trump was not informed of the surveillance, so it was also spying.

There is not one single meaning for the word "spying" in Webster's that goes against the way Barr used it.
How are the terms used when related to our government?

The CIA engages in "spying" and that entails the illegal gathering of secret information from foreign countries.

The DOJ/FBI conducts criminal "investigations" that comply with the Rule of Law in the United States.

Bob Barr, known for his selection of words, knew full well that his explicit use of the word "spying" would fuel the Trump conspiracy theories of illegal spying on the Trump campaign. It did exactly that when we look at Trump's response to the selection of the word "spying" by AG Barr.

Quote:
"I think what he said was absolutely true. There was absolutely spying into my campaign," Trump said Thursday. "I'll go a step further. It was my opinion it was illegal spying, unprecedented spying, and something that should never be allowed to happen in our country again."
If that was not what Bob Barr intended then there should be a front page story where Barr condemns President Trump for misrepresenting the statement Barr made. Barr has done absolutely nothing to debunk what the President has said as being FALSE without any evidence to support the allegation.

Rep Devin Nunes has been on Fox News claiming that Barr was confirming that "illegal spying" against the Trump campaign took place by our government.

The Trump 2020 campaign has used "illegal spying" to solicit funds.

The entire Trump world is claiming that Barr confirms the conspiracy theory that "illegal spying" against the Trump campaign took place.

If that's not what Bob Barr intended he should be slapping down these allegations as being completely unsupported. They've been investigated by the DOJ, the House, and the Senate and no evidence of any improper intelligence gathering has been found. The conspiracy theory was debunked under the Republican controlled Congress.

So where the hell is Bob Barr to slap down these false claims?

Don't give me the dictionary definition. Take a look outside your window and see what's actually happening and how the Trump world is using the word "spying" that Bob Barr used in his testimony.
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Based upon the corruption, brutality, inhumanity, immorality, dishonesty, and incompetence of the Trump administration the White House is the dirtiest house in America and there's no known cleanser that with remove the stains of the Trump Administration.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:28 AM
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Default Re: My Problem With Fox (Faux) News

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Dictionary.com defines "surveillance" in this way:

"1 a watch kept over a person, group, etc., especially over a suspect, prisoner, or the like: The suspects were under police surveillance.

"2 continuous observation of a place, person, group, or ongoing activity in order to gather information: video cameras used for covert surveillance. See also electronic surveillance.

"3 attentive observation, as to oversee and direct someone or something: increased surveillance of patients with chronic liver disease."

The second definition, especially, sounds a great deal like spying...
Surveillance can be a component of spying or a criminal investigation. If it's done for the purpose of spying it's unauthorized by the government where the surveillance takes place because the spying activity itself is illegal in that country.

The CIA spying on N Korea may include covert operatives or satellites performing surveillance of N Korean missile sites and that surveillance is illegal under N Korean law.

The FBI, as a part of a criminal investigation, may perform surveillance of a suspect as a part of it's criminal investigation. That criminal investigation including the surveillance must comply with our laws and is not illegal.

In common use spying is an illegal activity and criminal investigations are a lawful activity.
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Based upon the corruption, brutality, inhumanity, immorality, dishonesty, and incompetence of the Trump administration the White House is the dirtiest house in America and there's no known cleanser that with remove the stains of the Trump Administration.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:32 AM
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Default Re: My Problem With Fox (Faux) News

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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
Shiva's problem with FOX is that though they aren't perfect, they have reported and predicted closer to the truth than any other cable station.
"Closer to the truth."

There's virtually no truth in the story I cited except the people's names.

Here's a challenge for anyone.

Go find an unrelated story where the term "spying" was used in place of "criminal investigation" by law enforcement officers of the United States. Show me that usage of the word by another Attorney General or even a local police chief or prosecutor.
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:24 AM
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Default Re: My Problem With Fox (Faux) News

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Don't give me the dictionary definition [of "spying"]. ...In common use spying is an illegal activity and criminal investigations are a lawful activity.
I do find it rather interesting that you do not wish to be confronted with "the dictionary definition" of the word.

There are, of course, two types of definitions of anything: the descriptive and the prescriptive. (In other words, the way the word is commonly used, and the way that was originally prescribed.)

The dictionary includes both...
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Old 04-16-2019, 12:57 PM
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Default Re: My Problem With Fox (Faux) News

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
"Closer to the truth."

There's virtually no truth in the story I cited except the people's names.

Here's a challenge for anyone.

Go find an unrelated story where the term "spying" was used in place of "criminal investigation" by law enforcement officers of the United States. Show me that usage of the word by another Attorney General or even a local police chief or prosecutor.
If you are hanging your hat on the use of the word "spying" it's gonna spend a lot of time on the floor.

There is no way to describe what was done by the government to the campaign o Donald Trump without using the word "spying" Or "surveillance." Stop trying.

First Spying is the proper word and second, it is irrelevant to weaponizing our government agencies to check out the opposing party's campaign. That is what happened. They tapped phones and com lines. Inserted undercover personnel, even baited members with fake Russian agents. Surveilled or spied on, neither is acceptable.

It also seems to have been completely one sided as no reports have ever surfaced of doing the same to the Democratic party as an effort to protect and validate fair and free elections.

That, makes it political and therefore unacceptable no matter WHAT you call it.

Stop trying.
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