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Open Discussion Discuss Study: Why Facts Donít Change Our Minds at the General Forum; Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds New discoveries about the human mind show the limitations of reason. In 1975, researchers ...

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Old 04-14-2019, 08:52 AM
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Default Study: Why Facts Donít Change Our Minds

Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds
New discoveries about the human mind show the limitations of reason.


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In 1975, researchers at Stanford invited a group of undergraduates to take part in a study about suicide. They were presented with pairs of suicide notes. In each pair, one note had been composed by a random individual, the other by a person who had subsequently taken his own life. The students were then asked to distinguish between the genuine notes and the fake ones.Some students discovered that they had a genius for the task. Out of twenty- vepairs of notes, they correctly identified the real one twenty-four times. Others discovered that they were hopeless. They identified the real note in only ten instances.As is often the case with psychological studies, the whole setup was a put-on.Though half the notes were indeed genuine—they’d been obtained from the Los Angeles County coroner’s office—the scores were fictitious. The students who’d been told they were almost always right were, on average, no more discerning than those who had been told they were mostly wrong.In the second phase of the study, the deception was revealed. The students were told that the real point of the experiment was to gauge their responses tothinking they were right or wrong. (This, it turned out, was also a deception.)Finally, the students were asked to estimate how many suicide notes they had actually categorized correctly, and how many they thought an average student would get right. At this point, something curious happened. The students in the high-score group said that they thought they had, in fact, done quite well—significantly better than the average student—even though, as they’d just beentold, they had zero grounds for believing this. Conversely, those who’d been assigned to the low-score group said that they thought they had done significantly worse than the average student—a conclusion that was equally unfounded.“Once formed,” the researchers observed dryly, “impressions are remarkably perseverant.”

few years later, a new set of Stanford students was recruited for a related study.The students were handed packets of information about a pair of fireghters,Frank K. and George H. Frank’s bio noted that, among other things, he had a baby daughter and he liked to scuba dive. George had a small son and played golf. The packets also included the men’s responses on what the researchers called the Risky-Conservative Choice Test. According to one version of the packet, Frank was a successful firefighter who, on the test, almost always went with the safest option. In the other version, Frank also chose the safest option,but he was a lousy re fighter who’d been put “on report” by his supervisors several times. Once again, midway through the study, the students were informed that they’d been misled, and that the information they’d received was entirely fictitious. The students were then asked to describe their own beliefs.What sort of attitude toward risk did they think a successful firefighter would have? The students who’d received the rst packet thought that he would avoid it. The students in the second group thought he’d embrace it.Even after the evidence “for their beliefs has been totally refuted, people fail to make appropriate revisions in those beliefs,” the researchers noted. In this case,the failure was “particularly impressive,” since two data points would never have been enough information to generalize from...https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...=pocket-newtab

the article is pretty interesting, as long as we ignore the completely made up BS caveman fantasy storytelling they shoehorn in as theoretical causation for human bias influenced reasoning. But the experimental studies themselves are informative and stirs some reflections.

Questions for the club; how many of you have changed your minds about issues or people? and why?
When presented with facts that clearly show that a view you've held was incorrect or incomplete have you at least modified you're view on an issue or idea?
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Old 04-14-2019, 09:49 AM
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Default Re: Study: Why Facts Donít Change Our Minds

Normalcy bias, because people do not want to believe that what they were taught, and believe, is not the truth.

You can lay it out there, with validation from a hundred sources, and some will refuse to even look.

The human mind protects itself, drastic upheaval can 'damage' it....
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:23 AM
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Default Re: Study: Why Facts Donít Change Our Minds

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Originally Posted by mr wonder View Post
Questions for the club; how many of you have changed your minds about issues or people? and why?
When presented with facts that clearly show that a view you've held was incorrect or incomplete have you at least modified you're view on an issue or idea?
I've repeatedly had to change my beliefs and opinions based upon the uncovering of facts and information that established my prior beliefs were incorrect or lacked a foundation in logic or reason.

Cases:

#1
I once believed that Federal Reserve Notes were unconstitutional but have since changed that opinion based upon reading the Supreme Court reasoning behind the "Legal Tender" case in "Juilliard v Greenman" decision, other Supreme Court cases, the history and the laws related to "promissory notes" (a Federal Reserve note is a promissory note) and the "lawful money" of the United States. What I found is that the federal government is not required under the Constitution to use "lawful money" and it's successfully defended itself in lawsuits by individuals that have been plaintiffs in federal lawsuits. It would lose it's case if a State Treasurer demanded redemption of Federal Reserve (promissory) notes in "Lawful Money" (American Eagle coins) based upon the Constitutional requirement to pay it's debts only in gold and silver (Article I Section 10). Only a State has a Constitutional requirement to pay in gold and silver coinage (lawful money) and the Supreme Court decision in Juilliard v Greenman addressed that requirement in it's Legal Tender decision. If a State Treasurer submitted Federal Reserve notes to the US Treasury for redemption in American Eagle coins of equal denomination value (i.e. a $50 Federal Reserve note is a promise of payment of $50 in gold/silver coins) the Supreme Court would order the Treasure to redeem the Federal Reserve notes in American Eagle coins based upon Article I Section 10.

#2
I've also changed my mind on the Natural Right "Of Property" based upon John Locke's Second Treatise of Civil Government, Chapter 5. Locke's arguments center on the "Right to Possess" and are an argument against "ownership" of property that allows a person to "possess that which they have no right to possess" under our laws. As Locke points out the only thing a person actually owns is their own body. The use of their body, their labor, to secure that which they need for their "survival and comfort" provides them with a "right to possess" those things. Title to property, under Locke, is a recognition of the Right to Possess while our laws of Title grants the Legal Right, but not the Natural Right, to Possess the property regardless of whether we actually acquired that Right to Possess based upon our labor. One of our problems is that the "common laws" of property (decisions by the courts or arbitrators of disputes) could only decide who, the plaintiff or the defendant in a dispute over property, should have possession of the property. The court or arbitrator was never allowed to make a decision that neither one of them had a right to possess the property to begin with. Choice A or B but no Choice C.

Example: Group A invades the territory of Group B and person 1 of Group A fights the owner of sheep in Group B to steal his sheep. While Person 1 of Group A is doing the fighting to steal the sheep Person 2 of Group B sneaks in and steals the sheep. They return home and Person 1, the Plaintiff, files a complaint saying he deserves the sheep because he did the fighting while Person 2, the Defendant that actually has the sheep, says he has the right to keep the sheep because he's the one that stole them. The arbitrator must decide whether Person 1 should possess the sheep because Person 1 did the fighting or if Person 2 that actually stole the sheep and has possession of the sheep, should be allowed to keep them. No where is the fact that only the shepherd that raised the sheep has a natural right of property to possess the sheep a consideration of the court/arbitrator in making their decision for the plaintiff or defendant. The court/arbitrator grants ownership to either the plaintiff or the defendant but cannot grant the "right to possess" to either of them because neither of them has a right to possess the sheep.


The examples of how I've had to change my beliefs and opinions are almost endless but they're all great examples because I learned from the truth.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:35 AM
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Default Re: Study: Why Facts Donít Change Our Minds

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Normalcy bias, because people do not want to believe that what they were taught, and believe, is not the truth.

You can lay it out there, with validation from a hundred sources, and some will refuse to even look.

The human mind protects itself, drastic upheaval can 'damage' it....
Interesting because I find the opposite to be true. I love when I can prove that what I was taught to believe was BS by discovering the truth.

Scientists also tend to want to prove that a belief commonly held is false. It's a career maker to actually prove a scientific theory is false because that rarely happens. The scientific method is so well founded that rarely are false conclusions reached. But scientists keep looking to find a problem with an existing theory because that's the whole point of science to begin with. A search for the truth regardless of what someone might believe.
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Old 04-14-2019, 12:45 PM
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Default Re: Study: Why Facts Donít Change Our Minds

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Interesting because I find the opposite to be true. I love when I can prove that what I was taught to believe was BS by discovering the truth.

Scientists also tend to want to prove that a belief commonly held is false. It's a career maker to actually prove a scientific theory is false because that rarely happens. The scientific method is so well founded that rarely are false conclusions reached. But scientists keep looking to find a problem with an existing theory because that's the whole point of science to begin with. A search for the truth regardless of what someone might believe.
Then you would be an exception.

I've done it, laid out facts, and validation from many places and sources, and still some dig their heels in with what they have always believed.. And it's a brick wall, 99% of the time.

I even asked on here, if anyone had ever been influenced to do additional research and found their previous beliefs to be factually incorrect (I may not have worded it that way) and not a soul would admit to it.
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Old 04-14-2019, 12:52 PM
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Default Re: Study: Why Facts Donít Change Our Minds

For two years, we've heard "Trump colluded with Russia"...Many (MANY, MANY, MANY!!!!) told us this was FACT...No doubt about it...Ring it up...

And now we find that FACT to be false...The REAL fact is that Trump did NOT collude with Russia...

As an example to the OP, how many people told that Trump colluded with Russia have changed their mind now that the REAL FACT is given?...

Answer...Not many...
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Old 04-14-2019, 03:45 PM
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Default Re: Study: Why Facts Donít Change Our Minds

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For two years, we've heard "Trump colluded with Russia"...Many (MANY, MANY, MANY!!!!) told us this was FACT...No doubt about it...Ring it up...

And now we find that FACT to be false...The REAL fact is that Trump did NOT collude with Russia...

As an example to the OP, how many people told that Trump colluded with Russia have changed their mind now that the REAL FACT is given?...

Answer...Not many...
True, polling pre and post summary shows that minds really weren't changed much if at all.

But I understand, you still have people chanting "lock her up!" at Trump rallies long, long after Hillary was cleared by the FBI. They still believe she's some sort of super-corrupt criminal after how many investigations, partisan and not, over the last couple of decades?

Shoot we had a recent thread drudging up the ol' "Clinton Body Count" conspiracy lol.
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Old 04-14-2019, 04:01 PM
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Default Re: Study: Why Facts Donít Change Our Minds

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Originally Posted by WallyWager View Post
But I understand, you still have people chanting "lock her up!" at Trump rallies long, long after Hillary was cleared by the FBI. They still believe she's some sort of super-corrupt criminal after how many investigations, partisan and not, over the last couple of decades?


I am not convinced the ogre's rectum has been cleared (FBI my ass) and has been declared a saint.
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Old 04-14-2019, 05:44 PM
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Default Re: Study: Why Facts Donít Change Our Minds

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Originally Posted by WallyWager View Post
True, polling pre and post summary shows that minds really weren't changed much if at all.

But I understand, you still have people chanting "lock her up!" at Trump rallies long, long after Hillary was cleared by the FBI. They still believe she's some sort of super-corrupt criminal after how many investigations, partisan and not, over the last couple of decades?

Shoot we had a recent thread drudging up the ol' "Clinton Body Count" conspiracy lol.
Hillary wasn't cleared by the FBI. Comey testified before Congress there was plenty of criminal activity around her handling of classified information. Miraculously she lacked "intent". Somehow someone who had run the State department with 75K employees and was said to be historically well qualified to run the Federal government with a million employees was incapable of forming intent to break the law.

The fact is that Hillary Clinton wasn't prosecuted using a different standard of justice than we common folk live under.
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Old 04-14-2019, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Study: Why Facts Donít Change Our Minds

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Why Facts Donít Change Our Minds
Mueller Report....
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