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Open Discussion Discuss It's time for a constitutional convention of states at the General Forum; Originally Posted by saltwn 70% with deductions vs 15-25% with deductions. Even when taxes were 91% for the top income ...

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Old 01-09-2019, 03:52 AM
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Default Re: It's time for a constitutional convention of states

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
70% with deductions vs 15-25% with deductions.




Even when taxes were 91% for the top income tax bracket no one even paid paid 70%. The total top effective tax rate was mostly 42%,But most of that 42% was not the income tax itself.


https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-rich-1950-not-high/
There is a common misconception that high-income Americans are not paying much in taxes compared to what they used to. Proponents of this view often point to the 1950s, when the top federal income tax rate was 91 percent for most of the decade.[1] However, despite these high marginal rates, the top 1 percent of taxpayers in the 1950s only paid about 42 percent of their income in taxes. As a result, the tax burden on high-income households today is only slightly lower than what these households faced in the 1950s.


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All things considered, this is not a very large change. To put it another way, the average effective tax rate on the 1 percent highest-income households is about 5.6 percentage points lower today than it was in the 1950s. That’s a noticeable change, but not a radical shift.[3]

How could it be that the tax code of the 1950s had a top marginal tax rate of 91 percent, but resulted in an effective tax rate of only 42 percent on the wealthiest taxpayers? In fact, the situation is even stranger. The 42.0 percent tax rate on the top 1 percent takes into account all taxes levied by federal, state, and local governments, including: income, payroll, corporate, excise, property, and estate taxes. When we look at income taxes specifically, the top 1 percent of taxpayers paid an average effective rate of only 16.9 percent in income taxes during the 1950s.[4]
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Old 01-09-2019, 03:42 PM
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Default Re: It's time for a constitutional convention of states

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Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
Even when taxes were 91% for the top income tax bracket no one even paid paid 70%. The total top effective tax rate was mostly 42%,But most of that 42% was not the income tax itself.


https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-rich-1950-not-high/
There is a common misconception that high-income Americans are not paying much in taxes compared to what they used to. Proponents of this view often point to the 1950s, when the top federal income tax rate was 91 percent for most of the decade.[1] However, despite these high marginal rates, the top 1 percent of taxpayers in the 1950s only paid about 42 percent of their income in taxes. As a result, the tax burden on high-income households today is only slightly lower than what these households faced in the 1950s.


skip....

All things considered, this is not a very large change. To put it another way, the average effective tax rate on the 1 percent highest-income households is about 5.6 percentage points lower today than it was in the 1950s. That’s a noticeable change, but not a radical shift.[3]

How could it be that the tax code of the 1950s had a top marginal tax rate of 91 percent, but resulted in an effective tax rate of only 42 percent on the wealthiest taxpayers? In fact, the situation is even stranger. The 42.0 percent tax rate on the top 1 percent takes into account all taxes levied by federal, state, and local governments, including: income, payroll, corporate, excise, property, and estate taxes. When we look at income taxes specifically, the top 1 percent of taxpayers paid an average effective rate of only 16.9 percent in income taxes during the 1950s.[4]
in return for that rate many of the deductions were beneficial to American workers and American markets in general.
also again a percentage of 70-90% vs a percentage of 15-25%
you do the math
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Old 01-09-2019, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: It's time for a constitutional convention of states

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Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
How could it be that the tax code of the 1950s had a top marginal tax rate of 91 percent, but resulted in an effective tax rate of only 42 percent on the wealthiest taxpayers? In fact, the situation is even stranger. The 42.0 percent tax rate on the top 1 percent takes into account all taxes levied by federal, state, and local governments, including: income, payroll, corporate, excise, property, and estate taxes. When we look at income taxes specifically, the top 1 percent of taxpayers paid an average effective rate of only 16.9 percent in income taxes during the 1950s.[4]
Deductions and a tiered "progressive" tax rate system are inherently flawed because they're artificially produced to provide the best results for certain groups while pretending to be fair.

Step One in addressing personal income taxes is to toss out all individual deductions and all of the "progressive tax rates" and start with a clean slate.

So I tossed them out and applied the proposition put forward based upon our "natural rights" that John Locke established in a single sentence in his 1690 publishing of the Second Treatise of Civil Government. One sentence was all it took to understand fair taxation.

Quote:
Sec. 140. It is true, governments cannot be supported without great charge, and it is fit every one who enjoys his share of the protection, should pay out of his estate his proportion for the maintenance of it.
Governments cost money to operate and everyone should pay the same proportion out of their "estate" but the "estate" can only be measured at dissolution when all the liabilities are paid from the assets and whatever left over, if anything, is the actual estate. That doesn't work for annual revenue but income does. So the formula is slightly different. We have "necessary expenditures" that are the fundamental costs of "support and comfort" and the income necessary for this is a financial liability that must be paid for from the income. All income above this amount is "profit" or we could call in "surplus annual assets" and it's from the "surplus annual assets" that an equal proportion (percentage) must be taken to support the costs of government.

To keep it simple for tax purposes, and it must be simple when applying it to everyone in the nation, I simply established that "Median Household Income" was the "cost" and that all above that amount is "surplus annual assets.

Let's assume the median household income for year "X" is $50,000. All households, with a slight tweak for household size, receive a $50,000 exemption from taxation on their personal income. Real simple. All income above $50,000 will be taxed at the same rate so that the taxation is proportionate for everyone on their "surplus annual income" but we need to know what rate to apply.

The purpose of the tax is to fund the general expenditures so are the Congressionally authorized general expenditures for the year? Let's just call it $3 trillion in general expenditures for the year.

Okay, if we're exempting all income below median income we're going to be apply taxation on roughly half of all personal income for the year (it's more than half because the exemption wasn't based upon average income but that's okay when your over $20 trillion in the hole starting out). So let's assume the personal income for the year is going to be $16 trillion then it's easy to figure out the rate. Divide 16 in half to account for the exemption and then divide 3 trillion in costs by 8 trillion in income and the rate would be 37.5% on all income above $50,000.

Sounds like a lot but it's not really. Someone with a very good living earning $100,000/yr is only going to have an effective tax rate on all income of 18.75% because the "exemption" automatically makes a single tax rate (proportionate tax on surplus income) a progressive tax. The person with only $51,000 in income pays$3,750 in income taxes or an effective tax rate on $60,000 of 6.25%.

Of note all income, regardless of source, would be subjected to the tax. Corporations would also pay the same tax rate on net income. All income is taxed the same, period.

Every year an new median income would be expected, a new projected national personal income amount, and a new Congressionally authorized spending budget and so every year the tax rate would probably change slightly based upon the relationship between personal income and government spending.

And never any deficits and enough surplus revenue to begin paying off the national debt.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:29 AM
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Default Re: It's time for a constitutional convention of states

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It's time for a constitutional convention of states

https://www.tennessean.com/story/opi...ates/97565468/
How about we just follow the constitution AS IS for a 15 years or so.
That'd cancel most of the bureaucracy... and stop much of the authoritarian overreach. and possibly cancel the income tax... and more.. (put some in prison as well) .

After that point states and congress can start working on amendments ... as the constitution outlines... for substantive changes. every other law, Executive order, or policy that's NOT aligned with or subject to the constitution should be declared NULL and VOID...

if people are going to bring up the "founding fathers" and reference the constitution at all seems they should go all the way.... right?
Folks are serious when they say they want the Constitution applied... right? Or is it that they only really want their way in the CURRENT extremely unconstitutional milieu?
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Old 01-12-2019, 09:10 AM
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Default Re: It's time for a constitutional convention of states

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How about we just follow the constitution AS IS for a 15 years or so.
That'd cancel most of the bureaucracy... and stop much of the authoritarian overreach. and possibly cancel the income tax... and more.. (put some in prison as well) .

After that point states and congress can start working on amendments ... as the constitution outlines... for substantive changes. every other law, Executive order, or policy that's NOT aligned with or subject to the constitution should be declared NULL and VOID...

if people are going to bring up the "founding fathers" and reference the constitution at all seems they should go all the way.... right?
Folks are serious when they say they want the Constitution applied... right? Or is it that they only really want their way in the CURRENT extremely unconstitutional milieu?
I always love the "pure Constitutionalist" and "founding fathers" arguments. Let's start with one huge issue right out of the gate.

Article I states that members of the House are to be "selected by the people" and the 17th Amendment states that Senators are to be "elected by the people" of the United States.

The People of the United States are all permanent residents counted by the US Census (required by the Constitution) and includes the two sub-groups of "citizens" and "non-citizens" so the first thing we need to do is to strike down federal and state laws that prohibit non-citizen permanent residents from voting.

Agreed?
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Old 01-12-2019, 02:24 PM
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Default Re: It's time for a constitutional convention of states

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
I always love the "pure Constitutionalist" and "founding fathers" arguments. Let's start with one huge issue right out of the gate.

Article I states that members of the House are to be "selected by the people" and the 17th Amendment states that Senators are to be "elected by the people" of the United States.

The People of the United States are all permanent residents counted by the US Census (required by the Constitution) and includes the two sub-groups of "citizens" and "non-citizens" so the first thing we need to do is to strike down federal and state laws that prohibit non-citizen permanent residents from voting.

Agreed?
If I were to agree, will you agree to help dismantle the REST of the unconstitutional federal gov't laws, regs, policies, agencies... etc?
I suspect Not.
but for some reason you've left out the 14th amendment which says in part...
1: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws...
Citizens are not just people that wander in, but those "born or naturalized" is the constitutional standard for voters/citizens, citizens have the privilege under law of voting shiva.

Got anymore objections?
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Last edited by mr wonder; 01-12-2019 at 02:43 PM..
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Old 01-12-2019, 02:45 PM
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Default Re: It's time for a constitutional convention of states

just to make it clear the 15th amendment adds,
"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude..."
the 19th amendment adds,
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
the 24th amendment adds,
The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
the 26th amendment adds
The right of citizens of the United States, who are 18 years of age or older, to vote, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state on account of age.

If you want to lobby for an amendment for NON-citizens to vote be my guest... AFTER 15 solid years of abiding by the current constitutional jurisdiction.
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Last edited by mr wonder; 01-12-2019 at 02:51 PM..
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Old 01-14-2019, 12:25 AM
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Default Re: It's time for a constitutional convention of states

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