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Open Discussion Discuss Nancy Pelosi and the border wall at the General Forum; Nancy Pelosi--and many others of a liberal persuasion--claims that a border wall (along the US-Mexico border) would be "immoral." Yet ...

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Old 12-08-2018, 03:42 PM
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Default Nancy Pelosi and the border wall

Nancy Pelosi--and many others of a liberal persuasion--claims that a border wall (along the US-Mexico border) would be "immoral."

Yet she says that she is in favor of "border security."

This begs the question: Exactly what measures would she consider to be moral in this regard?

Also: Why, exactly, would a border wall be "immoral," in her opinion?

Note: Not merely ineffective (from her standpoint); but downright immoral.

I have yet to wrap my head around this...
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Old 12-08-2018, 07:31 PM
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Default Re: Nancy Pelosi and the border wall

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Nancy Pelosi--and many others of a liberal persuasion--claims that a border wall (along the US-Mexico border) would be "immoral."

Yet she says that she is in favor of "border security."

This begs the question: Exactly what measures would she consider to be moral in this regard?

Also: Why, exactly, would a border wall be "immoral," in her opinion?

Note: Not merely ineffective (from her standpoint); but downright immoral.

I have yet to wrap my head around this...
You need to ask her.
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Old 12-09-2018, 01:54 AM
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Default Re: Nancy Pelosi and the border wall

The Left has increasingly used two different phrases...One of them is "immoral"...

This is another example of "Government" as a religion...The Left's "Gods" are bureaucratic officials...

(The second is an Obama standard...."That's not who we are!"....as if he gets to choose)..
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Old 12-09-2018, 07:32 AM
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Default Re: Nancy Pelosi and the border wall

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
You need to ask her.
That's so not clever. You constantly impute the lowest of morals and basest of motives to Republicans in general and Trump in particular yet now you dodge another Nancy Pelosi whopper feigning not understanding.

Just like the Obama administration weaponized the IRS to attack Conservative groups and the intelligence and Federal law enforcement agencies to undermine the 2016 Presidential election, Nancy Pelosi uses an appeal to ersatz morality as a basis for demogoguery. Anything that doesn't suit her radical Left agenda becomes "immoral" requiring Resistance by any means necessary because after all they are on the side of the Angel's.
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Old 12-09-2018, 10:59 AM
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Default Re: Nancy Pelosi and the border wall

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Nancy Pelosi--and many others of a liberal persuasion--claims that a border wall (along the US-Mexico border) would be "immoral."

Yet she says that she is in favor of "border security."

This begs the question: Exactly what measures would she consider to be moral in this regard?

Also: Why, exactly, would a border wall be "immoral," in her opinion?

Note: Not merely ineffective (from her standpoint); but downright immoral.

I have yet to wrap my head around this...
I believe you're mixing up different issues that Pelosi has addressed about border security (and immigration control).

From a cost-benefit standpoint a wall along certain sections of the border makes sense while it doesn't make sense in other places. A wall, by itself which is easily scaled, offers no protections against unlawful border crossings but the issue is greater than just that.

The goal is to reduce unlawful immigration into the United States and that goal requires a revision to our immigration laws where people are admitted based upon our principles and values. Since 2016 I've only found one political philosophy that provides a foundation for revision of our existing immigration laws and it states:

Quote:
….supports legal immigration, within reasonable limits, that meets the needs of families, communities, and the economy as well as maintains the United States’ role as a beacon of hope for people seeking safety, freedom, and security.
https://democrats.org/about/party-pl...en-immigration

As noted by the link this came from the Democratic Party Platform in 2016. The Republican Party Platform was more of a political attack document that failed to offer anything constructive upon which to build a new set of immigration laws.

Lacking any true revision to the immigration laws we should next look at how people become undocumented (unlawful) immigrants to the United States. At one time it was arguably by unlawfully crossing the border while today the primary source of undocumented aliens is visa-overstays. They enter the US legally but just don't go home. Border security and a wall do nothing when it comes to visa-stays. Only a revision to our immigration laws will fix that.

Another primary source that's recently been of concern are refugees that enter the US to apply for asylum. This is a self-made problem because these same refugees arrived at a port of entry seeking to apply for asylum but, because of stonewalling by the current administration, they were denied the ability to apply and enter the US lawfully. Currently in Tijuana there's a backlog of refugees that have been building up because the Trump administration has failed to provide the manpower to process asylum claim. Instead of the manpower to process 300 plus applications per day, the minimum required to meet the Congressionally imposed 75,000 admissible refugees for 2018, the Trump administration is only providing enough people to process less than 100 applications. They have a right to apply for asylum and be admitted but Trump is preventing that. Eventually, as the backlog builds and the time for apply stretched into months, many simply enter illegally to apply for asylum in compliance with our asylum law.

Pelosi does refer to the immoral (and unconstitutional) conduct by the Trump administration in it's enforcement actions. The Trump administration was found to be in violation of the Constitution with it's child separation policy. In spite of a federal court order from months ago there are still over 100 children, a few that are still infants, that haven't been reunited with their parents. It's also immoral, in my opinion, to arrest a person suspected of being in the country unlawfully and letting them rot in prison without a court hearing for more than six months. If the government cannot provide the person with a timely court date then the person should be freed from custody. Locking a person up and denying them due process of the law in a timely is simply unacceptable and, as noted, immoral IMHO.
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Old 12-09-2018, 11:49 AM
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Default Re: Nancy Pelosi and the border wall

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Just like the Obama administration weaponized the IRS to attack Conservative groups and the intelligence and Federal law enforcement agencies to undermine the 2016 Presidential election....
Say what?

The IRS did withhold validation of 501 (c) 4 status from some conservative groups engaged in political activism for a limited amount of time but it never prevented them from operating as 501 (c) 4 organizations.

The US intelligence agencies and DOJ/FBI did nothing to harm Trump's 2016 campaign. In fact the FBI caused substantial harm to the Clinton campaign by releasing information of an ongoing criminal investigation of Hillary Clinton while not releasing similar information about the Trump campaign that was also under criminal investigation prior to the election. Clinton was cleared of criminal wrongdoing while Trump has been implicated in the violation of campaign finance laws and would be under indictment today if it wasn't for the fact he's the president.

As for undermining the election we had Donald Trump hiding business dealings that involved Vladimir Putin for real estate development is Moscow that was contingent upon Trump being elected and lifting sanctions against Russian business interests that Putin had a stake in. Trump, or as I like to refer to it "The Trump Crime Family" was involved in the felony violation of our campaign finance laws to prevent negative information about his sexual affairs from being made public while the "Putin Crime Family" was involved in illegally becoming involved in our elections to help Donald Trump get elected.

Trump claims there was no collusion but the Trump Crime Family and the Putin Crime family were both involved in illegal campaign activities to get Trump elected because they stood to make billions of dollars if Trump was elected. The election of Donald Trump was the most criminally corrupt presidential election that I'm aware of in US history.
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"I always had a rule, if the White House is dirty on the inside, it's dirty on the outside." ShivaTD

Based upon the corruption, brutality, inhumanity, immorality, dishonesty, and incompetence of the Trump administration the White House is the dirtiest house in America and there's no known cleanser that with remove the stains of the Trump Administration.
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Old 12-09-2018, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: Nancy Pelosi and the border wall

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
I believe you're mixing up different issues that Pelosi has addressed about border security (and immigration control).

From a cost-benefit standpoint a wall along certain sections of the border makes sense while it doesn't make sense in other places. A wall, by itself which is easily scaled, offers no protections against unlawful border crossings but the issue is greater than just that.

The goal is to reduce unlawful immigration into the United States and that goal requires a revision to our immigration laws where people are admitted based upon our principles and values. Since 2016 I've only found one political philosophy that provides a foundation for revision of our existing immigration laws and it states:


https://democrats.org/about/party-pl...en-immigration

As noted by the link this came from the Democratic Party Platform in 2016. The Republican Party Platform was more of a political attack document that failed to offer anything constructive upon which to build a new set of immigration laws.

Lacking any true revision to the immigration laws we should next look at how people become undocumented (unlawful) immigrants to the United States. At one time it was arguably by unlawfully crossing the border while today the primary source of undocumented aliens is visa-overstays. They enter the US legally but just don't go home. Border security and a wall do nothing when it comes to visa-stays. Only a revision to our immigration laws will fix that.

Another primary source that's recently been of concern are refugees that enter the US to apply for asylum. This is a self-made problem because these same refugees arrived at a port of entry seeking to apply for asylum but, because of stonewalling by the current administration, they were denied the ability to apply and enter the US lawfully. Currently in Tijuana there's a backlog of refugees that have been building up because the Trump administration has failed to provide the manpower to process asylum claim. Instead of the manpower to process 300 plus applications per day, the minimum required to meet the Congressionally imposed 75,000 admissible refugees for 2018, the Trump administration is only providing enough people to process less than 100 applications. They have a right to apply for asylum and be admitted but Trump is preventing that. Eventually, as the backlog builds and the time for apply stretched into months, many simply enter illegally to apply for asylum in compliance with our asylum law.

Pelosi does refer to the immoral (and unconstitutional) conduct by the Trump administration in it's enforcement actions. The Trump administration was found to be in violation of the Constitution with it's child separation policy. In spite of a federal court order from months ago there are still over 100 children, a few that are still infants, that haven't been reunited with their parents. It's also immoral, in my opinion, to arrest a person suspected of being in the country unlawfully and letting them rot in prison without a court hearing for more than six months. If the government cannot provide the person with a timely court date then the person should be freed from custody. Locking a person up and denying them due process of the law in a timely is simply unacceptable and, as noted, immoral IMHO.
You have pontificated for several paragraphs--but have never answered (or even attempted to answer) the central question, viz.: Just what is "immoral" about a border wall--especially from the standpoint of someone who claims to favor "border security"?

My guess is that Democrats are simply talking out of both sides of their mouths: genuflecting in the direction of "border security," while really attempting to undermine it--so as to increase their likely voter base (and perhaps even stick a finger in the eye of America--and of the West in general--which they hold in very low esteem).
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Old 12-09-2018, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Nancy Pelosi and the border wall

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Nancy Pelosi--and many others of a liberal persuasion--claims that a border wall (along the US-Mexico border) would be "immoral."

Yet she says that she is in favor of "border security."

This begs the question: Exactly what measures would she consider to be moral in this regard?

Also: Why, exactly, would a border wall be "immoral," in her opinion?

Note: Not merely ineffective (from her standpoint); but downright immoral.

I have yet to wrap my head around this...

Pelosi like many of her ilk are open borders scum. So she like her fellow open borders scum oppose adequate protection on the border. They like all open border scum will make bogus claims of a border wall being ineffective and being immoral because those things slow down or prevent people from illegally entering nations.
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Old 12-09-2018, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: Nancy Pelosi and the border wall

Quote:
Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
The Left has increasingly used two different phrases...One of them is "immoral"...

This is another example of "Government" as a religion...The Left's "Gods" are bureaucratic officials...

(The second is an Obama standard...."That's not who we are!"....as if he gets to choose)..
You don't have to belong to a major religious club to beleive in ethics and have a guideline of good values.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
That's so not clever. You constantly impute the lowest of morals and basest of motives to Republicans in general and Trump in particular yet now you dodge another Nancy Pelosi whopper feigning not understanding.

Just like the Obama administration weaponized the IRS to attack Conservative groups and the intelligence and Federal law enforcement agencies to undermine the 2016 Presidential election, Nancy Pelosi uses an appeal to ersatz morality as a basis for demogoguery. Anything that doesn't suit her radical Left agenda becomes "immoral" requiring Resistance by any means necessary because after all they are on the side of the Angel's.
How should I know what she wants, am I her press secretary?
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