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Open Discussion Discuss Daughter of former KKK ‘Grand Dragon’ explains the connections between white national at the General Forum; Originally Posted by pjohns Lee was fighting for a different country at the time--the Confederate States of America. It is ...

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Old 12-04-2018, 04:03 PM
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Default Re: Daughter of former KKK ‘Grand Dragon’ explains the connections between white nati

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Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
Lee was fighting for a different country at the time--the Confederate States of America.

It is probably also worth noting that "country" had a very different meaning at that time. In fact, Lee often spoke of his "country" of Virginia. (Virginia was not merely a state to Lee, as we think of states nowadays; rather, it was the actual country to which he belonged. Therefore, he sometimes said that he simply could not imagine raising his sword against it.)

We should really not impose today's way of thinking upon nineteenth-century people.
I know all about the veneration of Lee. I was steeped in it as a daughter of the deep South. Know all about France's recognition of the Southern States etc.,...That does not take away from the documented facts.

Robert E Lee was a traitor to his country the United States of America, as were all who fought for the Confederacy. Each had to sign an allegiance oath at the end of the Civil War.
Besides the above indisputable truth, the whole thing came about because the southern states wanted to keep slavery rather than adjust their economy. The plantation owners, genteel though they may have seemed were a de facto oligarchy ruling their neighbors' lives as well as owning human beings. It is a lesson we learned in morality. A dark stain on this nation, the ending of which lightened our burden of sin and enlightened the entire world.
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Old 12-04-2018, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: Daughter of former KKK ‘Grand Dragon’ explains the connections between white nati

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Originally Posted by saltwn View Post
I know all about the veneration of Lee. I was steeped in it as a daughter of the deep South. Know all about France's recognition of the Southern States etc.,...That does not take away from the documented facts.

Robert E Lee was a traitor to his country the United States of America, as were all who fought for the Confederacy. Each had to sign an allegiance oath at the end of the Civil War.
Besides the above indisputable truth, the whole thing came about because the southern states wanted to keep slavery rather than adjust their economy. The plantation owners, genteel though they may have seemed were a de facto oligarchy ruling their neighbors' lives as well as owning human beings. It is a lesson we learned in morality. A dark stain on this nation, the ending of which lightened our burden of sin and enlightened the entire world.
Applying today's 'morality' to 150 years ago is a bit sanctimonious. Perhaps you should have an understanding beyond what you claim to have been 'steeped' in..... what really existed, and what the conflicts were really based on. While we can all look back and judge harshly, the truth is the environment was different, and the existence of slavery was not viewed the same way. It was a time of change, but your holier-than-thou view of the situation is rather....pathetic.
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Old 12-05-2018, 01:03 PM
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Default Re: Daughter of former KKK ‘Grand Dragon’ explains the connections between white nati

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Me Dios.
If you can't figure it out, then me explaining it won't be doing much good either.
The right embraces moral relativism, when it suits their purpose.

Washington wishing independence for the 13 American states is the equivalent of confederate soldiers fighting for preservation of slavery in their argument...



Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaGo
Applying today's 'morality' to 150 years ago is a bit sanctimonious.
"today's morality"?
People at that time recognized the evil of slavery and the treachery of treasonous session as well.
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Old 12-05-2018, 01:31 PM
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Default Re: Daughter of former KKK ‘Grand Dragon’ explains the connections between white nati

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Let me see if I can help shed some light on this subject for you.

There are racist people in this country. They do not all subscribe to the same political leanings and in fact, exist within the entire spectrum of political views.

Race in and of itself, does not equate to being racist nor does it preclude racism. There are people of all races that feel that they are superior to others simply based upon the color of their skin.

With that being said, when people try to paint everyone they disagree with as racist based upon their political leanings, it works to diminishes true racism that exists in this world.

Racism is wrong and needs to be called out whenever it is encountered. But simply advocating for political policy that affects all races, is not racist whether or not you agree with it.

I hope this helps.
The left will NEVER get that! "But..but.. all republicans are racist, being a Democrat means you are not racist" I wonder how many idiots have fallen for that ruse?
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Old 12-05-2018, 01:42 PM
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Default Re: Daughter of former KKK ‘Grand Dragon’ explains the connections between white nati

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Applying today's 'morality' to 150 years ago is a bit sanctimonious. Perhaps you should have an understanding beyond what you claim to have been 'steeped' in..... what really existed, and what the conflicts were really based on. While we can all look back and judge harshly, the truth is the environment was different, and the existence of slavery was not viewed the same way. It was a time of change, but your holier-than-thou view of the situation is rather....pathetic.
The left excused the uber racist Robert Byrd because he said he was sorry.

Apparently the left thinks that none of the dead racist would ever apologize if they were alive today instead of 150 years ago. In fact they probably believe that if Lee were alive today he would be at the dock buying slaves off the ships.

But because it was normal when he died, we need to erase any mention of him.

150 years from now, we will wipe out all mention of Democrats that voted in favor of ripping babies from the womb and killing then. It will be seen as more barbaric than slavery ever was.
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Old 12-05-2018, 03:09 PM
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Default Re: Daughter of former KKK ‘Grand Dragon’ explains the connections between white nati

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Originally Posted by foundit66 View Post
The right embraces moral relativism, when it suits their purpose.

Washington wishing independence for the 13 American states is the equivalent of confederate soldiers fighting for preservation of slavery in their argument...


"today's morality"?
People at that time recognized the evil of slavery and the treachery of treasonous session as well.
The 'right'? Sticking people in niches are we? Tch tch, you should know better.

Perhaps my purported lack of 'incensed moral judgement' is not for others to understand, but to accept that their judgement is on a flawed base.

You are looking at actions, instead of looking at reasons... but it is easier to judge with binoculars, yes?
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Old 12-05-2018, 07:22 PM
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Default Re: Daughter of former KKK ‘Grand Dragon’ explains the connections between white nati

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Originally Posted by GottaGo View Post
Applying today's 'morality' to 150 years ago is a bit sanctimonious.
how the abolition movement started was people felt ashamed at the time that racism existed.

Quote:
Perhaps you should have an understanding beyond what you claim to have been 'steeped' in..... what really existed,
what i was steeped in and what existed was the majority of southerners looked upon R E Lee with fondness, talking up his good points of which there were many. graduated with highest grade at west point, believed in God, quoted scripture often. they said he wanted to do the moral thing but didn't want to fight his brothers of Virginia. part of that is true.
And I don't criticize Lee for his decisions It's just that it doesn't make him a hero.

And it doesn't detract from the fact the man was, as his sworn statement testifies, a traitor to his country.

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and what the conflicts were really based on.
This is the stickler. We (in the South) were all brought up to think the "elite" (as we thought of Yankees) had it wrong. It wasn't a war to protect slavery, it was all about economics and protecting the homeland.
While it was to an extent a war to protect a way of life, that way could only continue at the cost of government sanctioned human denigration and suffering.
more precisely:
In 1860 Abraham Lincoln ran on a message of containing slavery to where it currently existed. Because of the success of the Republican Party to which he belonged South Carolina seceded on December 20, 1860.
They felt that this showed that they had lost all power in the country and that the North would eventually ban slavery. so they and shortly more states seceded.
Quote:
While we can all look back and judge harshly, the truth is the environment was different, and the existence of slavery was not viewed the same way.
Slavery becomes standard when it has been sanctioned by the government and practiced awhile. It became acceptable in many great empires throughout history mainly as spoils of war.
In more recent times, England found its conscience and did away with it first.
Northerners had indentured servants but grew up believing in self sufficiency and hard work, though the import of slaves (bought by dealers who then sold them to southerners) lasted till 1804 .

The South with its cotton production needed vast amounts of manpower and chose to keep the culture alive by giving emancipation to black women after the 12th or 13th child was birthed. A whole industry was built on breeding alone.
Quote:
It was a time of change, but your holier-than-thou view of the situation is rather....pathetic.
Yes it was a time of change and we learn as we mature and are enlightened.
I learned that often black people are resigned but just as often offended that when they go register to vote or pay their city services bill or a traffic fine, they must walk past a statue of a confederate soldier who but for the grace of God, the abolition movement and Abraham Lincoln, fought to ensure them and their kids would have been born in chains.
It's a process.
I don't want to offend these people nor do I want to honor traitors.
The statues and emblems need not be demolished and if you feel like having them on your own property go to it! Otherwise they are best stored in a museum of history or appropriate military graveyard.
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Old 12-06-2018, 09:52 AM
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Default Re: Daughter of former KKK ‘Grand Dragon’ explains the connections between white nati

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how the abolition movement started was people felt ashamed at the time that racism existed.
Let's start here. It wasn't racism then, it was the subject of SLAVERY. Not all slaves were Black, or African.


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what i was steeped in and what existed was the majority of southerners looked upon R E Lee with fondness, talking up his good points of which there were many. graduated with highest grade at west point, believed in God, quoted scripture often. they said he wanted to do the moral thing but didn't want to fight his brothers of Virginia. part of that is true.
And I don't criticize Lee for his decisions It's just that it doesn't make him a hero.

And it doesn't detract from the fact the man was, as his sworn statement testifies, a traitor to his country.
Not every statue, or street or park named after someone was a 'hero'. A good portion is a nod to history, events that shaped this country, good and bad. Many of all statues and markers have been up longer than you or I have been alive. Should all acknowledgement be removed?

Quote:
This is the stickler. We (in the South) were all brought up to think the "elite" (as we thought of Yankees) had it wrong. It wasn't a war to protect slavery, it was all about economics and protecting the homeland.
While it was to an extent a war to protect a way of life, that way could only continue at the cost of government sanctioned human denigration and suffering.
more precisely:
In 1860 Abraham Lincoln ran on a message of containing slavery to where it currently existed. Because of the success of the Republican Party to which he belonged South Carolina seceded on December 20, 1860.
They felt that this showed that they had lost all power in the country and that the North would eventually ban slavery. so they and shortly more states seceded.
You do understand that slavery existed in the 'North' also, correct? It was not something solely contained to a southern geographic.

Quote:
Slavery becomes standard when it has been sanctioned by the government and practiced awhile. It became acceptable in many great empires throughout history mainly as spoils of war.
In more recent times, England found its conscience and did away with it first.
Northerners had indentured servants but grew up believing in self sufficiency and hard work, though the import of slaves (bought by dealers who then sold them to southerners) lasted till 1804 .
The first slaves arrived in America round about 1620... so it took people 150 years or so, to finally react to something they found abhorrent? Once again, using today's morality on events of 150 years ago is a ridiculous attempt to paint anything that does not conform to days perimeters of morality as something to be thrown into a dark closet, rather than looking at the environment that fostered it. I don't supposed you have attempted to understand ALL the events that caused the Civil War, have you?
Quote:
The South with its cotton production needed vast amounts of manpower and chose to keep the culture alive by giving emancipation to black women after the 12th or 13th child was birthed. A whole industry was built on breeding alone.
Tell me, did the North benefit from the cotton production? Did industrialization start because of the need for mills to process and weave the cotton (and other goods) that the South produced? Were additional taxes not levied on the product emanating from the South?

Quote:
Yes it was a time of change and we learn as we mature and are enlightened.
I learned that often black people are resigned but just as often offended that when they go register to vote or pay their city services bill or a traffic fine, they must walk past a statue of a confederate soldier who but for the grace of God, the abolition movement and Abraham Lincoln, fought to ensure them and their kids would have been born in chains.
It's a process.
I am of German descent. I am also of Jewish descent. I lost ancestors in the Holocaust. I see portraits of Hitler, I see people who lay claim to Swastikas, who believe what Hitler spewed. I don't demand that they take the pictures down, or change their minds. or let them make me feel oppressed. I pity them. But I don't believe they will rise up and come after me, at least not without a few of them going with me. I CAN'T CHANGE what has been done, but I also don't want the truth buried - people need to know the history, because they sure as hell keep making the same mistakes over and over again. And that was not 150 years ago.

Quote:
I don't want to offend these people nor do I want to honor traitors.
The statues and emblems need not be demolished and if you feel like having them on your own property go to it! Otherwise they are best stored in a museum of history or appropriate military graveyard.
Offense happens when the actions are current. If you want to spend the rest of your life apologizing for something you didn't do, to people you didn't do anything to, then have at it. What was done, was horrible, and if it was happening today, then I would be a staunch activist in getting it stopped. But if you remove the history to a place that people don't see on a regular basis, then everything that was done to end it, will be forgotten also.

And history repeats itself, because no one listened the first time.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:15 AM
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Default Re: Daughter of former KKK ‘Grand Dragon’ explains the connections between white nati

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Robert E Lee was a traitor to his country the United States of America, as were all who fought for the Confederacy.
How could anyone be a "traitor" to "the United States of America," if he saw himself as a citizen of the sovereign nation of Virginia?

That makes absolutely no sense to me.
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Old 12-06-2018, 01:23 PM
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Default Re: Daughter of former KKK ‘Grand Dragon’ explains the connections between white nati

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How could anyone be a "traitor" to "the United States of America," if he saw himself as a citizen of the sovereign nation of Virginia?

That makes absolutely no sense to me.
Just as England declared William Wallace a traitor.....
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