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Open Discussion Discuss Is The American Experiment now dying? at the General Forum; The great experiment is not dying. It's working as intended. Instead of an 8 year extension of the Obama librolock, ...

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Old 10-09-2018, 11:00 AM
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Default Re: Is The American Experiment now dying?

The great experiment is not dying. It's working as intended. Instead of an 8 year extension of the Obama librolock, we got President Trump. Due to having President Trump, we have Kavanaugh. Due the Kavanaugh debacle, the left most likely will lose in November and beyond.
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Old 10-09-2018, 11:27 AM
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Default Re: Is The American Experiment now dying?

"Wishful thinking. Will you answer this question, honestly?

Does the leadership of Trump emulate this vision of the United States:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America"

And, this phrase form the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

Yes or No.
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Old 10-09-2018, 12:00 PM
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Default Re: Is The American Experiment now dying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wry Catcher View Post
"Wishful thinking. Will you answer this question, honestly?

Does the leadership of Trump emulate this vision of the United States:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America"

And, this phrase form the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

Yes or No.
WAAAAY too general of a question...

That (and so many other things) can be twisted and molded to whatever the reader thinks politically...

When Obama said "We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.", millions roared with approval and millions groaned with disdain...

To ask "Does the leadership of Trump emulate this vision of the United States:" is the same thing...Millions would emphatically say "Yes!" and millions would emphatically say, "No!"...
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Old 10-09-2018, 02:12 PM
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Default Re: Is The American Experiment now dying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wry Catcher View Post
"Wishful thinking. Will you answer this question, honestly?

Does the leadership of Trump emulate this vision of the United States:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America"

And, this phrase form the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

Yes or No.
The last paragraph, above--actually, the last sentence--sounds almost lawyerly: Very seldom, after all, is anyone instructed to answer either "Yes or No" unless the question is intended as a trap--intended to shut off all nuanced discussion.

Nonetheless, I think I can answer your question: There is no apparent inconsistency (so far as I can see, anyway) between Donald Trump's style of governance and the quotes listed above, from the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.
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Old 10-09-2018, 03:51 PM
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Default Re: Is The American Experiment now dying?

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Originally Posted by cnredd View Post
WAAAAY too general of a question...

That (and so many other things) can be twisted and molded to whatever the reader thinks politically...

When Obama said "We are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.", millions roared with approval and millions groaned with disdain...

To ask "Does the leadership of Trump emulate this vision of the United States:" is the same thing...Millions would emphatically say "Yes!" and millions would emphatically say, "No!"...
The topic is primary sources written and signed off by the Founding Fathers. While being general, they all provide a moral vision statement, much like the Ten Commandments. Of course different people will make different judgments, but no one has of yet justified the behavior of Trump has been in concert with the two I offered.

In re thou shall not kill, we have a group of people who call abortion murder, and yet support capital punishment. Is that judgement hypocritical or is the commandment universal in nature, which some also believe?
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: Is The American Experiment now dying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
The last paragraph, above--actually, the last sentence--sounds almost lawyerly: Very seldom, after all, is anyone instructed to answer either "Yes or No" unless the question is intended as a trap--intended to shut off all nuanced discussion.

Nonetheless, I think I can answer your question: There is no apparent inconsistency (so far as I can see, anyway) between Donald Trump's style of governance and the quotes listed above, from the US Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.
Well there you go. Let's parse Trump's actions.

We'll start simple:


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

Trump's attack on the PPACA, i.e. Obamacare and Immigration. ALL MEN does not cover only men or only citizens. Setting aside for the moment the realpolitik, how has Trump's behavior impacted people lives.

1. Undocumented individuals and children born in a foreign nation and brought across our the border by their parent(s)?

Some are at risk of death if returned to their native country;
Some are only able to speak and understand English, and are being deported to a county in which they have never lived;
Some have been in the US since the end of the Bracero Program ended, own homes and have long term jobs [lets not even discuss a five year old being taken from the arms of their mother and placed in a foster home thousand of miles away from where her/his mother is incarcerated].

Tell the reader, is this in the spirit of the phrases I posted in the two documents signed by our founders?
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: Is The American Experiment now dying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wry Catcher View Post
The topic is primary sources written and signed off by the Founding Fathers. While being general, they all provide a moral vision statement, much like the Ten Commandments. Of course different people will make different judgments, but no one has of yet justified the behavior of Trump has been in concert with the two I offered.

In re thou shall not kill, we have a group of people who call abortion murder, and yet support capital punishment. Is that judgement hypocritical or is the commandment universal in nature, which some also believe?
And we have another group that fights to keep convicted homicidal maniacs alive, while gladly killing innocent babies as they come out of the womb.

You are back-assward like most liberals. You also say the left is anti violence, and anti hate, while your left wing heros like Max Waters and others, support violence and hate,

The left also tells their minions to shut down opposing views, and voices, which is a staple of fascism.

I keep telling you to look in the mirror, but you refuse.
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: Is The American Experiment now dying?

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Originally Posted by Dog Man View Post
And we have another group that fights to keep convicted homicidal maniacs alive, while gladly killing innocent babies as they come out of the womb.

You are back-assward like most liberals. You also say the left is anti violence, and anti hate, while your left wing heros like Max Waters and others, support violence and hate,

The left also tells their minions to shut down opposing views, and voices, which is a staple of fascism.

I keep telling you to look in the mirror, but you refuse.
You got this far, and no farther: "You are back-assward like most liberals". Grow up!

Is there a grown up willing to discuss my assessment of Trump rationally?
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Old 10-09-2018, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: Is The American Experiment now dying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wry Catcher View Post
You got this far, and no farther: "You are back-assward like most liberals". Grow up!

Is there a grown up willing to discuss my assessment of Trump rationally?
We are all rational, you are the irrational person. Just read your signature.

It will be kind of like looking in the mirror I guess.

Injustice is lynching a person based on un provable hearsay from one person.

If this kind of shlt keeps going on, you will be right, America as we know it will die.

Liberalism = irrational injustice
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Last edited by Dog Man; 10-09-2018 at 06:04 PM..
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Old 10-09-2018, 09:31 PM
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Default Re: Is The American Experiment now dying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wry Catcher View Post
Well there you go. Let's parse Trump's actions.

We'll start simple:


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

Trump's attack on the PPACA, i.e. Obamacare and Immigration. ALL MEN does not cover only men or only citizens. Setting aside for the moment the realpolitik, how has Trump's behavior impacted people lives.

1. Undocumented individuals and children born in a foreign nation and brought across our the border by their parent(s)?

Some are at risk of death if returned to their native country;
Some are only able to speak and understand English, and are being deported to a county in which they have never lived;
Some have been in the US since the end of the Bracero Program ended, own homes and have long term jobs [lets not even discuss a five year old being taken from the arms of their mother and placed in a foster home thousand of miles away from where her/his mother is incarcerated].

Tell the reader, is this in the spirit of the phrases I posted in the two documents signed by our founders?
It is a logical fallacy to take only the worst (and most heart-wrenching) cases, and suggest that they are typical.

As far as ObamaCare is concerned, it is really just a step toward universal healthcare (UHC). Some of its supporters will even admit this. Others--the incrementalists--prefer to use it as a ruse, in order to achieve their real goal.

Most illegal immigrants (not merely "undocumented workers"; I refuse to deal in euphemisms) are in no danger, if returned to their native lands. But parents and children should not be separated; both should be returned.
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