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Open Discussion Discuss Refugees - An American Perspective at the General Forum; Originally Posted by FrancSevin 1750 "Refuges" coming to America were leaving Europe to come to European COLONIES. They were NOT ...

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Old 07-05-2018, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post
1750 "Refuges" coming to America were leaving Europe to come to European COLONIES. They were NOT coming to a new nation but a dangerous wilderness under sovereign control from European monarchy's.. And the European "owners" of the land were glad to have someone willing to try and develop that wilderness. The original Settlers of Jamestowne did so with permission of the King of England. Therefore they were, technically, not "immigrants."

ShivaTD's example is based on an invalid premise.

Perspective matters!
With the Declaration of Independence ideologically Americans rejected both the Divine Right of Kings and the Right of Conquest (neither of which were every "rights" but instead were acts of force) invalidating any prior claim that England has on the colonies.

Europeans did not have a right of ownership to any of the land in the Americas. That land was occupied by the existing native population that held that land could not be owned by anyone because land is not created by anyone. While a person could establish a right to use the land they could never actually own it (Gee, that sounds exactly like John Locke in his Second Treatise of Civil Government, Chapter 5, (The Natural Right) "Of Property".

So England didn't have a valid claim over the American colonies and couldn't authorize the English people to relocate to the Americas. England, with it's military presence, was only exercising the use of tyrannical power.

As Jefferson also points out a person expatriating themselves from the land of their birth can either go to an ungoverned land and create a new government or they can go to a land that is already government and adopt it has their homeland.
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Old 07-05-2018, 01:56 PM
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Default Re: Refugees - An American Perspective

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
With the Declaration of Independence ideologically Americans rejected both the Divine Right of Kings and the Right of Conquest (neither of which were every "rights" but instead were acts of force) invalidating any prior claim that England has on the colonies.

Europeans did not have a right of ownership to any of the land in the Americas. That land was occupied by the existing native population that held that land could not be owned by anyone because land is not created by anyone. While a person could establish a right to use the land they could never actually own it (Gee, that sounds exactly like John Locke in his Second Treatise of Civil Government, Chapter 5, (The Natural Right) "Of Property".

So England didn't have a valid claim over the American colonies and couldn't authorize the English people to relocate to the Americas. England, with it's military presence, was only exercising the use of tyrannical power.

As Jefferson also points out a person expatriating themselves from the land of their birth can either go to an ungoverned land and create a new government or they can go to a land that is already government and adopt it has their homeland.



At the time of the occupation of the Americas by the royalties of Europe
they owned any and everything they conquered. And their subjects lived their daily lives with the understanding that all property, including their very persons, was the property of their king.

Therefore, when the pilgrims set out to start a new life in the AMERICAS, they receive a grant and permission to do so from their king. Ersatz, they therefore were not "refugees" nor were they "immigrants" by any definition. Then or today.

Except perhaps, yours.

The word you could be using is "migrants" Both words are useful, but not interchangeable.


As for the indigenous people of the Americas, they did not recognize land mass Sovereignty in the same way. What they perceived as ownership was never the land.


Once again nothing you have posted here has anything to do with the facts. Really, you must understand that what you imagine things to have been, is not gospel.
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Old 07-08-2018, 06:03 PM
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Default Re: Refugees - An American Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrancSevin View Post

At the time of the occupation of the Americas by the royalties of Europe
they owned any and everything they conquered. And their subjects lived their daily lives with the understanding that all property, including their very persons, was the property of their king.

Therefore, when the pilgrims set out to start a new life in the AMERICAS, they receive a grant and permission to do so from their king. Ersatz, they therefore were not "refugees" nor were they "immigrants" by any definition. Then or today.

Except perhaps, yours.

The word you could be using is "migrants" Both words are useful, but not interchangeable.


As for the indigenous people of the Americas, they did not recognize land mass Sovereignty in the same way. What they perceived as ownership was never the land.


Once again nothing you have posted here has anything to do with the facts. Really, you must understand that what you imagine things to have been, is not gospel.
The claim of territory by the King of England did not establish any right of territory in the Americas. I refuse to accept an invalid claim as having any validity then or now. Only the self-determination of the people can establish a right of territory for a nation.

To my knowledge the government in England was not involved in authorizing individuals that relocated to the Americas. If a person wanted to leave England they got on a ship and traveled to the Americas and didn't need to seek permission from anyone.
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"I always had a rule, if the White House is dirty on the inside, it's dirty on the outside." ShivaTD

Based upon the corruption, brutality, inhumanity, immorality, dishonesty, and incompetence of the Trump administration the White House is the dirtiest house in America and there's no known cleanser that with remove the stains of the Trump Administration.
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