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Old 06-23-2018, 10:04 AM
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Default The Truth about Separating Kids

Instead of the frothy media coverage of family separation filled with self aggrandizing moral preening. This well researched article explains what's going on.

Our laws are structured to deal with an environment where most illegal border crossings are single males from Mexico. The change has been a big increase in mothers with children most from Central America. But the laws haven't been reformed to deal with this new reality, instead we have a patchwork of judicial decrees and executive directives.

Quote:
The Trump administration isnít changing the rules that pertain to separating an adult from the child. Those remain the same. Separation happens only if officials find that the adult is falsely claiming to be the childís parent, or is a threat to the child, or is put into criminal proceedings.

Itís the last that is operative here. The past practice had been to give a free pass to an adult who is part of a family unit. The new Trump policy is to prosecute all adults. The idea is to send a signal that we are serious about our laws and to create a deterrent against re-entry. (Illegal entry is a misdemeanor, illegal re-entry a felony.)

When a migrant is prosecuted for illegal entry, he or she is taken into custody by the U.S. Marshals. In no circumstance anywhere in the U.S. do the marshals care for the children of people they take into custody. The child is taken into the custody of HHS, who cares for them at temporary shelters.

The criminal proceedings are exceptionally short, assuming there is no aggravating factor such as a prior illegal entity or another crime. The migrants generally plead guilty, and they are then sentenced to time served, typically all in the same day, although practices vary along the border. After this, they are returned to the custody of ICE.

If the adult then wants to go home, in keeping with the expedited order of removal that is issued as a matter of course, itís relatively simple. The adult should be reunited quickly with his or her child, and the family returned home as a unit. In this scenario, thereís only a very brief separation.


Where it becomes much more of an issue is if the adult files an asylum claim. In that scenario, the adults are almost certainly going to be detained longer than the government is allowed to hold their children.

Thatís because of something called the Flores Consent Decree from 1997. It says that unaccompanied children can be held only 20 days. A ruling by the Ninth Circuit extended this 20-day limit to children who come as part of family units. So even if we want to hold a family unit together, we are forbidden from doing so.

The clock ticking on the time the government can hold a child will almost always run out before an asylum claim is settled. The migrant is allowed ten days to seek an attorney, and there may be continuances or other complications.

This creates the choice of either releasing the adults and children together into the country pending the ajudication of the asylum claim, or holding the adults and releasing the children. If the adult is held, HHS places the child with a responsible party in the U.S., ideally a relative (migrants are likely to have family and friends here).

Even if Flores didnít exist, the government would be very constrained in how many family units it can accommodate. ICE has only about 3,000 family spaces in shelters. It is also limited in its overall space at the border, which is overwhelmed by the ongoing influx. This means that ó whatever the Trump administration would prefer to do ó many adults are still swiftly released.


Why try to hold adults at all? First of all, if an asylum-seeker is detained, it means that the claim goes through the process much more quickly, a couple of months or less rather than years. Second, if an adult is released while the claim is pending, the chances of ever finding that person again once he or she is in the country are dicey, to say the least. It is tantamount to allowing the migrant to live here, no matter what the merits of the case.

A few points about all this:

1) Family units can go home quickly. The option that both honors our laws and keeps family units together is a swift return home after prosecution. But immigrant advocates hate it because they want the migrants to stay in the United States. How you view this question will depend a lot on how you view the motivation of the migrants (and how seriously you take our laws and our border).

2) Thereís a better way to claim asylum. Every indication is that the migrant flow to the United States is discretionary. It nearly dried up at the beginning of the Trump administration when migrants believed that they had no chance of getting into the United States. Now, it is going in earnest again because the message got out that, despite the rhetoric, the policy at the border hasnít changed. This strongly suggests that the flow overwhelmingly consists of economic migrants who would prefer to live in the United States, rather than victims of persecution in their home country who have no option but to get out.

Even if a migrant does have a credible fear of persecution, there is a legitimate way to pursue that claim, and it does not involve entering the United States illegally. First, such people should make their asylum claim in the first country where they feel safe, i.e., Mexico or some other country they are traversing to get here. Second, if for some reason they are threatened everywhere but the United States, they should show up at a port of entry and make their claim there rather than crossing the border illegally.


3) There is a significant moral cost to not enforcing the border. There is obviously a moral cost to separating a parent from a child and almost everyone would prefer not to do it. But, under current policy and with the current resources, the only practical alternative is letting family units who show up at the border live in the country for the duration. Not only does this make a mockery of our laws, it creates an incentive for people to keep bringing children with them.

Needless to say, children should not be making this journey that is fraught with peril. But there is now a premium on bringing children because of how we have handled these cases. They are considered chits.

In April, the New York Times reported:

Some migrants have admitted they brought their children not only to remove them from danger in such places as Central America and Africa, but because they believed it would cause the authorities to release them from custody sooner.

Others have admitted to posing falsely with children who are not their own, and Border Patrol officials say that such instances of fraud are increasing.

According to azcentral.com, it is ďcommon to have parents entrust their children to a smuggler as a favor or for profit.Ē


If someone is determined to come here illegally, the decent and safest thing would be to leave the child at home with a relative and send money back home. Because we favor family units over single adults, we are creating an incentive to do the opposite and use children to cut deals with smugglers.

4) Congress can fix this. Congress can change the rules so the Flores consent decree will no longer apply, and it can appropriate more money for family shelters at the border. This is an obvious thing to do that would eliminate the tension between enforcing our laws and keeping family units together. The Trump administration is throwing as many resources as it can at the border to expedite the process, and it desperately wants the Flores consent decree reversed. Despite some mixed messages, if the administration had its druthers, family units would be kept together and their cases settled quickly.

The missing piece here is Congress, but little outrage will be directed at it, and probably nothing will be done. And so our perverse system will remain in place and the crisis at the border will rumble on.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nat...at-border/amp/
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Old 06-23-2018, 11:09 AM
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Default Re: The Truth about Separating Kids

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
Instead of the frothy media coverage of family separation filled with self aggrandizing moral preening. This well researched article explains what's going on.

Our laws are structured to deal with an environment where most illegal border crossings are single males from Mexico. The change has been a big increase in mothers with children most from Central America. But the laws haven't been reformed to deal with this new reality, instead we have a patchwork of judicial decrees and executive directives.
If the Trump administration was following our immigration laws then those seeking asylum would have their application processed at the US Port of Entry when they arrived but the Trump administration only allows a handful of those showing up to actually apply. The backlog of those seeking to apply for asylum, because they're not being allowed to at the US Port of Entry, has ballooned into the thousands. They're literally being forced away because Trump refuses to enforce the law by providing the application and allowing the lawful entry under our immigration laws.

So those turned away have another lawful means for applying for asylum. All they have to do is be physically in the United States and then they can lawfully apply for asylum that grants them the right to be in the United States. The law providing for asylum explicitly establishes that how they manage to be in the United States, by lawful entry or unlawfully crossing the borders, doesn't matter because the application for asylum grants them the right to be in the United States and prevents their deportation at least until their application is processed through our legal system.

So why is Jeff Sessions and Donald Trump having the these people arrested as opposed to providing them with Form I-589, Application for Asylum and for Withholding of Removal, when they express their intent in filing for asylum? The filing of Form I-589 immediately grants the applicant legal status to be in the United States making the charge of "unlawful entry" a moot point of law. If permanent residence status is eventually granted based upon asylum the charge of unlawful entry is dismissed by the court.

Donald Trump created this crisis, not the law, and the resolution is easy and far less costly than what's going on. Staff every Port of Entry with enough people to process the applications of Form I-589 and let the asylum seekers lawfully enter the United States in compliance with our law.

There's only one reason President Trump refuses to comply with this law that allows lawful entry for those seeking asylum and he's voiced his reason at his rallies.

"SEND THEM ALL BACK" is Trump's reason. These are Hispanic refugees that if Trump follows the law become lawful immigrants that Trump tells his followers (lawful Hispanic) immigrants are "infesting" the United States.

Trump isn't following the law because he hates "Mexicans" (Hispanics) so he's refusing to allow them to lawfully be in the United States based upon an application for asylum.

Fix the Problem - Make Trump follow the law that allows entry for asylum seekers.
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Old 06-23-2018, 12:09 PM
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Default Re: The Truth about Separating Kids

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
If the Trump administration was following our immigration laws then those seeking asylum would have their application processed at the US Port of Entry when they arrived but the Trump administration only allows a handful of those showing up to actually apply. The backlog of those seeking to apply for asylum, because they're not being allowed to at the US Port of Entry, has ballooned into the thousands. They're literally being forced away because Trump refuses to enforce the law by providing the application and allowing the lawful entry under our immigration laws.

So those turned away have another lawful means for applying for asylum. All they have to do is be physically in the United States and then they can lawfully apply for asylum that grants them the right to be in the United States. The law providing for asylum explicitly establishes that how they manage to be in the United States, by lawful entry or unlawfully crossing the borders, doesn't matter because the application for asylum grants them the right to be in the United States and prevents their deportation at least until their application is processed through our legal system.

So why is Jeff Sessions and Donald Trump having the these people arrested as opposed to providing them with Form I-589, Application for Asylum and for Withholding of Removal, when they express their intent in filing for asylum? The filing of Form I-589 immediately grants the applicant legal status to be in the United States making the charge of "unlawful entry" a moot point of law. If permanent residence status is eventually granted based upon asylum the charge of unlawful entry is dismissed by the court.

Donald Trump created this crisis, not the law, and the resolution is easy and far less costly than what's going on. Staff every Port of Entry with enough people to process the applications of Form I-589 and let the asylum seekers lawfully enter the United States in compliance with our law.

There's only one reason President Trump refuses to comply with this law that allows lawful entry for those seeking asylum and he's voiced his reason at his rallies.

"SEND THEM ALL BACK" is Trump's reason. These are Hispanic refugees that if Trump follows the law become lawful immigrants that Trump tells his followers (lawful Hispanic) immigrants are "infesting" the United States.

Trump isn't following the law because he hates "Mexicans" (Hispanics) so he's refusing to allow them to lawfully be in the United States based upon an application for asylum.

Fix the Problem - Make Trump follow the law that allows entry for asylum seekers.
I'm no fan of Trumps, but do you have proof of ANY of that? Seriously. I would seriously like to see the evidence that Trump is blocking people from lawfully seeking asylum.
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Old 06-23-2018, 12:25 PM
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Default Re: The Truth about Separating Kids

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
If the Trump administration was following our immigration laws then those seeking asylum would have their application processed at the US Port of Entry when they arrived but the Trump administration only allows a handful of those showing up to actually apply. The backlog of those seeking to apply for asylum, because they're not being allowed to at the US Port of Entry, has ballooned into the thousands. They're literally being forced away because Trump refuses to enforce the law by providing the application and allowing the lawful entry under our immigration laws.

So those turned away have another lawful means for applying for asylum. All they have to do is be physically in the United States and then they can lawfully apply for asylum that grants them the right to be in the United States. The law providing for asylum explicitly establishes that how they manage to be in the United States, by lawful entry or unlawfully crossing the borders, doesn't matter because the application for asylum grants them the right to be in the United States and prevents their deportation at least until their application is processed through our legal system.

So why is Jeff Sessions and Donald Trump having the these people arrested as opposed to providing them with Form I-589, Application for Asylum and for Withholding of Removal, when they express their intent in filing for asylum? The filing of Form I-589 immediately grants the applicant legal status to be in the United States making the charge of "unlawful entry" a moot point of law. If permanent residence status is eventually granted based upon asylum the charge of unlawful entry is dismissed by the court.

Donald Trump created this crisis, not the law, and the resolution is easy and far less costly than what's going on. Staff every Port of Entry with enough people to process the applications of Form I-589 and let the asylum seekers lawfully enter the United States in compliance with our law.

There's only one reason President Trump refuses to comply with this law that allows lawful entry for those seeking asylum and he's voiced his reason at his rallies.

"SEND THEM ALL BACK" is Trump's reason. These are Hispanic refugees that if Trump follows the law become lawful immigrants that Trump tells his followers (lawful Hispanic) immigrants are "infesting" the United States.

Trump isn't following the law because he hates "Mexicans" (Hispanics) so he's refusing to allow them to lawfully be in the United States based upon an application for asylum.

Fix the Problem - Make Trump follow the law that allows entry for asylum seekers.
More half truths, no truths, speculations, and ramblings.

And finally, the reason according to Shiva:

"Trump isn't following the law because he hates "Mexicans" ".

That must be it.
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Old 06-23-2018, 01:07 PM
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Default Re: The Truth about Separating Kids

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More half truths, no truths, speculations, and ramblings.

And finally, the reason according to Shiva:

"Trump isn't following the law because he hates "Mexicans" ".

That must be it.
In fact Trump is following the law. He has instituted a policy of arresting all adults who illegally cross the border. Instead of treating everyone equally the previous administration arrested some but not others. Coming here with children was almost certainly a free pass, claim refugee status then get your summons for a hearing and be set free in the US with very little chance of being deported. If you were deported you could come right back because it was only a civil citation.

Instead of filing for refugee status at the US embassy or consulate back home or at a port of entry where 80% of applications are denied, simply take your chances crossing the border. If you get caught claim refugee status, you might get that summons you can ignore like 90% do then be released in the US. Or, you can enjoy a safe, comfortable lifestyle in the detention facility while your case is adjudicated. You will be defended by a taxpayer funded attorney during the process.

The charge that Trump denies entry to those seeking refugee status who enter through a port of entry is nonsense. The only people arrested are those who are caught sneaking across the border outside ports of entry. Even those people can delay deportation by filing for refugee status.
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Old 06-23-2018, 01:43 PM
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Default Re: The Truth about Separating Kids

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Originally Posted by AZRWinger View Post
In fact Trump is following the law. He has instituted a policy of arresting all adults who illegally cross the border. Instead of treating everyone equally the previous administration arrested some but not others. Coming here with children was almost certainly a free pass, claim refugee status then get your summons for a hearing and be set free in the US with very little chance of being deported. If you were deported you could come right back because it was only a civil citation.

Instead of filing for refugee status at the US embassy or consulate back home or at a port of entry where 80% of applications are denied, simply take your chances crossing the border. If you get caught claim refugee status, you might get that summons you can ignore like 90% do then be released in the US. Or, you can enjoy a safe, comfortable lifestyle in the detention facility while your case is adjudicated. You will be defended by a taxpayer funded attorney during the process.

The charge that Trump denies entry to those seeking refugee status who enter through a port of entry is nonsense. The only people arrested are those who are caught sneaking across the border outside ports of entry. Even those people can delay deportation by filing for refugee status.
Your suggesting that illegal immigrants, Mexican cartels, all in cahoots with "Open Border" politicians ,,, were gaming the system..

Who woulda' thunk it?
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: The Truth about Separating Kids

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
If the Trump administration was following our immigration laws then those seeking asylum would have their application processed at the US Port of Entry when they arrived but the Trump administration only allows a handful of those showing up to actually apply. The backlog of those seeking to apply for asylum, because they're not being allowed to at the US Port of Entry, has ballooned into the thousands. They're literally being forced away because Trump refuses to enforce the law by providing the application and allowing the lawful entry under our immigration laws.

So those turned away have another lawful means for applying for asylum. All they have to do is be physically in the United States and then they can lawfully apply for asylum that grants them the right to be in the United States. The law providing for asylum explicitly establishes that how they manage to be in the United States, by lawful entry or unlawfully crossing the borders, doesn't matter because the application for asylum grants them the right to be in the United States and prevents their deportation at least until their application is processed through our legal system.

So why is Jeff Sessions and Donald Trump having the these people arrested as opposed to providing them with Form I-589, Application for Asylum and for Withholding of Removal, when they express their intent in filing for asylum? The filing of Form I-589 immediately grants the applicant legal status to be in the United States making the charge of "unlawful entry" a moot point of law. If permanent residence status is eventually granted based upon asylum the charge of unlawful entry is dismissed by the court.

Donald Trump created this crisis, not the law, and the resolution is easy and far less costly than what's going on. Staff every Port of Entry with enough people to process the applications of Form I-589 and let the asylum seekers lawfully enter the United States in compliance with our law.

There's only one reason President Trump refuses to comply with this law that allows lawful entry for those seeking asylum and he's voiced his reason at his rallies.

"SEND THEM ALL BACK" is Trump's reason. These are Hispanic refugees that if Trump follows the law become lawful immigrants that Trump tells his followers (lawful Hispanic) immigrants are "infesting" the United States.

Trump isn't following the law because he hates "Mexicans" (Hispanics) so he's refusing to allow them to lawfully be in the United States based upon an application for asylum.

Fix the Problem - Make Trump follow the law that allows entry for asylum seekers.
WRONG! The law is clear that those that seek asylum do so either at a US embassy or consulate, or at a port of entry. Those people are then processed without charges begin filed.

The law does however state that if you are caught crossing the border illegally without a legal right to do so, you are now here illegally and are subject to prosecution. It is then too late to claim asylum, as that should have been done via the proper process.

The difference between the Obama policies and the Trump policies is that Trump insists that the Boarder Patrol enforce ALL of the laws, not just the ones he agrees with like Obama did.

I dumb'd it down for you as you seem to be incapable of comprehension skills necessary to understand what has been said to you many times in the past.
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