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Open Discussion Discuss Trump Campaign Guilty of Collusion (Conspiracy) at the General Forum; Originally Posted by Schochite And don't forget the DNC and Podesta were not hacked either. In this case the moron ...

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Old 06-12-2018, 11:04 PM
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Default Re: Trump Campaign Guilty of Collusion (Conspiracy)

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Originally Posted by Schochite View Post
And don't forget the DNC and Podesta were not hacked either. In this case the moron (Podesta) and then owing to the same moron (Podesta) the DNC was phished.
Correct...

According to Podesta, he asked an IT employee if the email was safe and was given the OK...
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Old 06-13-2018, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: Trump Campaign Guilty of Collusion (Conspiracy)

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
The GRU (Russian intelligence) was responsible for the hacking of the DNC/Hillary Clinton emails. This is routine espionage that all countries fundamentally engage in. It is a criminal act rarely or never prosecuted.

It is against the US election laws for any foreigner or foreign government to try to influence the US elections.

It's an established fact that Russia was responsible for a social media propaganda campaign and the release of hacked (illegally obtained) DNC/Clinton campaign emails in an effort to influence the US presidential election for the benefit of Donald Trump. This act is codified as "conspiracy against the United States" under the law.

Any attempt by a US person or group to secure the assistance of a foreign government or person, the criminal act of conspiracy against the United States, is to enter into that conspiracy with the foreign government or person. Just asking for that assistance is a criminal act regardless of whether the foreign government or person carries out any intended actions to effect the election. The "conspiracy" exists with or without execution of the conspiracy.

On June 9, 2016, senior members of the Trump campaign including Donald Trump Jr met in the Trump Tower with representatives of the Russian government to secure access to the DNC/Clinton campaign emails that the GRU (Russian intelligence) had in it's possession. This was clearly an effort by the Trump campaign to involve a foreign government in the 2016 Presidential election. The Trump campaign became a "co-conspirator" in the criminal act of "conspiracy against the United States" by the Russians. Within days of the Trump campaign seeking to obtain access to the emails the GRU made those emails available to the Trump campaign with publication by WikiLeaks. The "conspiracy" was successfully executed between the Trump campaign and the Russians.

On Aug 3, 2016, members of the Trump campaign including Donald Trump Jr had another meeting in Trump Tower and this time is was about soliciting possible assistance from Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates that were eager to help Trump get elected. In this case it involved an already developed multimillion-dollar proposal for a social media manipulation effort to help elect Mr. Trump. While we're unsure of whether any part of this social media campaign was ever executed the mere solicitation by the Trump campaign established their role as a "co-conspirator against the United States" with foreign countries.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/19/u...nce-zamel.html

https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/14/polit...ing/index.html

Those claiming that there's no evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians are simply lying about the truth. The Trump campaign was actively soliciting assistance from Russian and other foreign countries to commit the criminal act of "conspiracy against the United States" by seeking their influence to effect the election on behalf of Donald Trump.
Yep. And that is why Trump wants MAGA bots to think the New York Times is fake news. The New York Times is Trump's hometown newspaper and his go-to media for information and press releases.
It is only his followers he doesn't want to read it.
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Old 06-13-2018, 09:06 AM
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Default Re: Trump Campaign Guilty of Collusion (Conspiracy)

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD
...It's an established fact that Russia was responsible for a social media propaganda campaign and the release of hacked (illegally obtained) DNC/Clinton campaign emails in an effort to influence the US presidential election for the benefit of Donald Trump. ....
"It's an established fact that Russia was responsible for a social media propaganda campaign..."
well, That is an established fact, -Sort a kinda- the Russia were behind a Rinky Dink "social media" meme "campaign" About as powerful as Hairy Jellos Pro-Trump post around the web.
Other than the hand full of low level players involved there's no where to go with that criminally. and it's not something that has any clear links to spexfic Russia agents or leadership much less clear links back to Trump in any way.

the AND part is even further off
...and the release of hacked (illegally obtained) DNC/Clinton campaign emails in an effort to influence the US presidential election...
um, No, it is not an "established fact".
not at all.
the key players claim otherwise. WIKIleaks and associates. one states flatly that he got it from a DNC "insider" and past it on to wikileaks.
Former NSA officials and TRULY independent tech researchers say that the emails were leaked not hacked. Based on the leaked files data records records of speed of download and that the source was the DC area.and a download to a drive not a internet transfer.


one would have to ignores and/or denies this testimony.
And then assume the, evidence sparse, speculations and assertions from others with vested interested (paid DNC researchers) and from the DNC (which never gave their servers to the FBI or any other gov't agency for review and investigation of the so called server hacks)
to assert "established "facts" with a strait face.

it's not even close to an established fact.


That's the problem.
making a legal case against a sitting president on these grounds is simply piss poor.
It would be a hard case to make against a just hired FBI agent much less a sitting president.

there's no real smoking gun and no hard connections to the rarely...(never?)... prosecuted crimes outlined by you.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:47 AM
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Default Re: Trump Campaign Guilty of Collusion (Conspiracy)

The FBI showed no interest in obtaining the servers supposedly hacked by the Russian boogeyman. Instead, they took second hand information from a Democrat hired IT firm and treated it as evidence while Democrats howled about a crime being committed against them. Under Obama's politicized DOJ Democrats get to decide on a cover story then the FBI has to treat it as fact.

Wikileaks released DNC emails 2 weeks after the Access Hollywood recording was made public. Timed to be the proverbial October surprise that destroyed Trump's campaign, the recording of an 11 year old conversation was held to a point where it was thought the Trump campaign could not recover. Yet when Wikileaks released the Democrats emails 2 weeks later it's proof the Russians were behind it.

Oh but wait, we have the second hand, hearsay claim from a foreign diplomat with ties to the Clintons of a low level Trump campaign staffer claiming to know the emails existed over drinks in London. Of course there is no such thing as false drunken boasting ti Resistance zealots determined to destroy Trump.

Like so much of the Russia Trump conspiracy the claim that Russian interference was motivated by a desire to help Trump is based on secret evidence. The same politicized intelligence agencies that failed to warn the Trump campaign of supposed Russian interference concluded concluded the Russians did it to help Trump. Again no evidence, just partisan speculation.
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Old 06-13-2018, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: Trump Campaign Guilty of Collusion (Conspiracy)

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Originally Posted by ShivaTD View Post
Being guilty of committing a crime and being convicted of committing a crime are not the same thing. A "Not Guilty" verdict from a jury is not a declaration of innocence under the laws of the United States. We can also note that criminal guilt (conviction) doesn't always reflect that the person is guilty of committing the crime either. There have been enough exonerations of wrongfully convicted persons to establish that as a fact.

The evidence of a conspiracy between members of the Trump campaign and the Russians is substantial but we have yet to see the criminal indictments and the successful prosecution where "admissible evidence" establishes "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt" but most of us are confident that the Mueller investigation has that evidence based upon what we know from outside of the Mueller investigation.

One of the greatest problems currently are people that keep claiming that Mueller's investigation hasn't produced any evidence of "collusion" (conspiracy) between the Trump campaign and the Russians. What the Mueller investigators have found in the way of evidence is a closely guarded secret. There have been no leaks from the investigation so any claims of what Mueller's team has uncovered are inherently wrong. We can make logical deductions based upon Mueller's court filings but those are logical deductions that establish that the evidence exists as opposed to actually being able to prove that the evidence exists.

Just following the Paul Manafort connections with Putin establishes the line of communication between the Trump campaign and Putin and the claims of one of Manafort's top executives (Konstantin Kilimnik), a former Russian intelligence officer that has always been in contact with (Putin's) Russian intelligence services and Putin oligarchs, that he was instrumental in Manafort's changing the Republican Party Platform on Russia provides enough evidence of a conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Putin's Russia even if Trump was completely unaware of it (Trump unaware of it? Doubtful to say the least.).

The Mueller indictment alleging that Manafort conspired with Konstantin Kilimnik in witness tampering in 2018 and Kilimnik's claims he was responsible for the change in the Republican Party Platform on Russia provides grounds to logical conclude that Manafort and Kilimnik did conspire in 2016 for the benefit of Putin to make that change in the party platform. I don't know how any other logical conclusion can be made given what we know.
Read both your statements that I highlighted in blue . How can evidence be both substantial enough to make your claim yet at the same time be a closely guarded secret? Your mental gymnastics are interesting.
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Old 06-13-2018, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: Trump Campaign Guilty of Collusion (Conspiracy)

I do find it interesting that this "Russian collusion" claim by the media and inspected by Mueller is now being reported as "Russian meddling" by both.
https://www.google.com/search?q=russ...hrome&ie=UTF-8

I guess stupid people can't see the evolution of the claims.
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Old 06-13-2018, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Trump Campaign Guilty of Collusion (Conspiracy)

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Originally Posted by Bat View Post
I do find it interesting that this "Russian collusion" claim by the media and inspected by Mueller is now being reported as "Russian meddling" by both.
https://www.google.com/search?q=russ...hrome&ie=UTF-8

I guess stupid people can't see the evolution of the claims.
Time to shift the message since the collusion angle is not paying out.
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Old 06-13-2018, 08:48 PM
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Default Re: Trump Campaign Guilty of Collusion (Conspiracy)

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Originally Posted by Schochite View Post
Time to shift the message since the collusion angle is not paying out.
time for a shift...

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Old 06-14-2018, 06:13 PM
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Default Re: Trump Campaign Guilty of Collusion (Conspiracy)

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Originally Posted by Schochite View Post
And don't forget the DNC and Podesta were not hacked either. In this case the moron (Podesta) and then owing to the same moron (Podesta) the DNC was phished.
Phishing is an illegal means by which to acquire the information consumers use to identify themselves online.

Hacking is the act of gaining access to information to which you are not authorized.


Phishing, in this case, was used as the means to obtain the access to information that they (those responsible for the phishing scam) were not authorized to (i.e. hacking).

So while the username and password were obtained by the "phishing" when the username and password was used to access the email account to secure the contents of the emails, then that constituted hacking of the email account.

So yes it involved phishing but it also involved hacking as well.

Please learn the definitions of the words that you use.
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Old 06-14-2018, 06:43 PM
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Default Re: Trump Campaign Guilty of Collusion (Conspiracy)

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Originally Posted by Bat View Post
I do find it interesting that this "Russian collusion" claim by the media and inspected by Mueller is now being reported as "Russian meddling" by both.
https://www.google.com/search?q=russ...hrome&ie=UTF-8

I guess stupid people can't see the evolution of the claims.
Russian meddling in our elections has been going on since 2014 and continues today unopposed by the Trump administration. The conspiracy (collusion) between members of the Trump campaign and Russian agents only addresses a limited time frame during 2016 or perhaps started in late 2015 when Michael Cohen was attempting to put together the Moscow Trump Tower deal (That Donald Trump lied about saying he wasn't trying to do any business deals with Russia). That's what Mueller's investigation was initially tasked with finding evidence of that conspiracy that was "probable" based upon intelligence and evidence available at the time.

The obstruction of justice that's under investigation didn't actually start until after Trump was elected although we know that the cover-ups of Trump campaign involvement with the Russians existed from at least late July 2016 when the FBI notified the Trump campaign of Russia targeting their campaign and requested that any contacts by Russians with the campaign be reported. The Trump campaign never reported their contacts with the Russians and, and we know some falsely denied any contacts had occurred because two of them have already plead guilty to lying to the FBI about their Russian contacts. We're still waiting to see of others are indicted for similar charges such as Jared Kushner that nefariously left out several contacts with the Russians on his Security Clearance form that he signed under penalty of perjury and that was then sent to the FBI for investigation.

So yes, the Russians are still meddling, and have increased their meddling, in the 2018 election and maybe Trump is still colluding with the Russians that can be indicated by Trump's refusal to do anything about it and just maybe Mueller has evidence of that too but Mueller hasn't mentioned it in any court papers.

Remember that no indictments have been issued yet related to the hacking of the DNC/Clinton campaign emails (that we know of) and those indictments will be coming out in the future because laws were broken. If there was a conspiracy related to those emails, and evidence indicates there was because of the efforts by the Trump campaign to obtain access to those emails, then those indictments will be coming as well.
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